By Milestone Two Moderators

The purpose of this blog and the purpose of Milestone Two has been expressed clearly. It is well published and you can find details on our blog pages and on our website.

When conversations/commentary/discussions on the MS2 blog are routinely led off topic to debate things that are not in accord with the MS2 purpose, we consider this a dramatization of what LRH tech handles — or it is simply trolls trying to cause trouble.

Either way it is a distraction and drives our readers away, while at the same time it can cause confusions in the field – or undermine the basic stable datums that people have.

This is not a playing field for a minor few who have agendas not in alignment with the group purpose and goals.

Our apologies (from the moderators) if our oversight and control has not been tight enough on this specific point.

Our moderation policy has been simple, and is repeated again here:

1. This blog is run by and for, a community of people who want to see that the LRH aims for Scientology are met. There is no affiliation or connection with the Church of Scientology — and our readers and contributors come from all walks of life and each have their own perspective and reality on LRH and on Scientology. We have people who have been excommunicated, persons who have been off-lines, and also persons who are “under the radar” and still in good standing. All are welcome to write articles and to post comments. In fact, any person is welcome to read and post on this blog — as long as they keep in mind this purpose and the audience

2.  This site is unquestionably “with LRH”, meaning that we will not tolerate generalities, attacks and natter about the man — which we have found, every time, is borne in ignorance or through false information provided by ‘sources’ that are themselves false.

3.  This is not a hate site — and good manners and politeness are expected. No one expects that everyone agrees, as life is made of many different view points. But to be clear — this is an Open House, and persons who enter and then shit and vomit all over the carpet and guests, are escorted out. Just makes sense really. There are many places for people who are disgruntled, nattery, critical and in a games condition regarding the subject of Scientology.  This  site is not one of them.

4. The first few posts an individual submits only appear after a moderator has read them. That individual’s posts thereafter appear immediately as long as he respects the basic policies of the blog.

5. Posts which violate the basic policies of remaining on topic, being reasonable, and polite to authors and other posters, result in the poster being “put in the corner” – his or her posts are again screened before appearing.One can redeem oneself and be let out of the corner simply by following the basic protocols expected.

6.  Posters who continuously violate policies are simply banned. Their posts are not even read for screening.

The Supreme Court many years ago ruled that there is an enforceable legal difference between legitimate free speech, and intentional disruption. At a press conference, for example, a reporter may ask pertinent pointed questions, but he cannot ‘heckle’. One may write a critical review of a play or movie, but one cannot disrupt the audience.

The distinction is one of reason and judgment, with consideration for the rights of many to enjoy their thoughts and activities, peacefully and un-offended, compared to the rights of one or two to their right to express their opinions (even if worthless).

If someone gets the notion to “sing along” during a performance of one of Mozart’s operas, he may be asked to leave (regardless of his opinion as to the quality of his singing), or ejected with the use of necessary force, and he may not then charge those who ejected him with assault.

So to reiterate — this is not a hate site. This is a safe space for Scientologists and will continue to remain so.

Thank you to the vast number of well-intentioned, intelligent, honest, polite and communicative individuals that make up our audience and writers.

116 thoughts on “Still not a hate site

  1. Great post! Very apt considering my local South African blog, Back in comm is having a landslide of negative LRH and tech bashing going on!!

    Make no mistake blogs like ours are making MASSIVE impact accross the scientology spectrum. The only way they win is by duvid

    • ..divide and conquor! (Posted prematurely)

      Either the trolls are agitating or the real haters despise people getting into comm. Glad there is a general clampdown, lest we get too distracted! The way things are hotting up Id day the RCS is in the 11th hour under its tyrannical despot. His face and demenour show it all.

      Its up to us, those who still hold the tech dear to keep the torch burning. Thank you milestone 2 and company for your stellar work in this regard. Its appreciated all the way. The bridge is still here, many are walking it and it is a grand and wonderous thing indeed!!

      • Yeah that’s why I nuked it from my Book Marks. I mean if I wanna read trash about the Ol’man (which I don’t particularly because I consider him a friend) or was some self flagellating masochist I’d go to ARS , ESMB, OCBMB or Tony Ortega’s Bunker.

        Pretty much populated by L1 R/Sers, NCGs and motivator types kinda like OSA but without Sea Org uniforms 😉

        Personally I’d say BIC was good in the beginning like Jeff, Marty and Mike’s blogs were at one time until they tried greasing those annoying squeaky gates (see above) who demanded a voice.

        Then it started over on BIC and for me the fat lady sang as far as that blog was concerned especially after they posted that arrogant perspective by FKA Galactic Patrol who as far as I’m concerned should have remained patrolling some other galaxy.

        So who needs ’em. As far as I’m concerned bad news blogs about Scientology have reached a saturation point and are on their way out.

        Fer instance ARS which is full of nothing but bots and reposts.

        And as far as I’m concerned good riddance.

    • sheeplebane: Very apt considering my local South African blog, Back in comm is having a landslide of negative LRH and tech bashing going on!!

      Ya, they seem to be going the way of the Rathbun. I might read the OP if it interests me, but the posts I no longer bother with, way too ESMBish. Their moderation itself tells the whole story being very receptive to LRH attacks under the guide of freedom of speech.

    • The ESMB crowd moved into Back In Comm a few months back and have all but taken it over. Further, a large percentage of articles are now slagging LRH, or are written by people who openly state they are no longer Scientologists. It is a real shame. It is not about freedom of speech — it is about the blog being railroaded and morphed into something else.

      Seems to me that the “Scientologists back in comm” blog has lost the “Scientologists” and is now a large number of nayer-sayers who get back in comm to natter.

      I used to visit daily, and contribute. I don’t bother anymore.

      • “it is about the blog being railroaded and morphed into something else.”

        Morphed into an anti-Scientology, anti-LRH site. This was the intent and the owner(s) of the site had their own BPC still unhandled (i.e., O/Ws, out-lists, etc.) and so allowed this to occur. It’s not hard to keep a blog/site on-Source and in-ARC; it’s very hard not to. One knows the intent by what the result is.

        “I used to visit daily, and contribute. I don’t bother anymore.”

        Same here. The following excerpt from HCOB 19 Aug 63, How To Do An ARCX Assessment explains what is occurring. In particular, the part in CAPS and the two conditions are key:

        “The purpose of an ARC Break Assessment is to return the pc into session or into Scientology or into an Org or course. By-passed charge can cause the person to blow out of session, or out of an Org or a course or Scientology.




        The data about ARC Breaks can be expanded to marriage, companies, jobs, etc. Indeed to all dynamics—With Dynamic, Against Dynamic.

        What it boils down to is this: There are only two conditions of living, but many shades of grey to each one.

        These conditions are:

        1. LIFE: NOT ARC BROKEN: Capable of some affinity for, some reality about and some communication with the environment; and

        2. DEATH: ARC BROKEN: Incapable of affinity for, reality about and
        communication with the environment.

        Under One we have those who can disenturbulate themselves and make some progress in life.

        Under Two we have those who are in such protest that they are stopped and can make little or no progress in life.

        One, we consider to be in some ARC with existence.

        Two, we consider to be broken in ARC with existence.

        In a session or handling the living lightning we handle, people can be hit by a forceful charge of which they are only minutely aware but which swamps them. Their affinity, reality and communication (life force) is retarded or cut by this hidden charge and they react with what we call an ARC Break or have an ARC Broken aspect.

        If they know what charge it is they do not ARC Break or they cease to be ARC Broken.

        It is the unknown character of the charge that causes it to have such a violent effect on the person.

        People do not ARC Break on known charge. It is always the hidden or the earlier charge that causes the ARC Break.

        This makes life look different (and more understandable). People continuously explain so glibly why they are acting as badly as they are. Whereas, if they really knew, they would not act that way. When the true character of the charge (or many charges as in a full case) is known to the person the ARC Break ceases.”

      • I find it difficult to come to terms that these 17 or 18 were unjustly declared by the church when they participate openly deriding LRH and the tech, and/or allow people on their blogs to do so. This M2 blog in many respects has the same problem as the church keeping the trash out, although the church has complicated matters by having altered the tech and off-policy fundraising scams.

        When LRH and the tech is bashed, the right to reform the CO$ Management and their squirrely actions has been waved. Their voice in my book no longer counts and they are exactly what the church said they are: Apostates with an axe to grind.

        The right target is the mismanagement in all their forms & associated alterations. SPs hit the wrong target, they hit LRH and the tech. (Exceptions of course where someone had only ever experienced bad auditing/tech and nothing to compare it to.)

        If you’ve been bankrupted, your family broken up, misjustices carried out against you by the church … and you bash the tech, as far as I’m concerned (Let me get my bat) I’d like to get a couple of shots in on you too. I have no sympathy for any of that dreck. I’m sure Fair Gaming was not some revengeful Schnapsidee that LRH came up with one fine Pleasant Valley Sunday afternoon. There certainly in my book are a few instances it ought to be applied, but unfortunately it had been unjustly implemented too many times against those who had merely spoken out because the KR Line/Justice System no longer worked.

        I you decide Scientology isn’t for you, that’s one thing. But maligning it, you’ve got ev purps, Sec Check fodder.

        • I recently had a couple write to me asking for services in South Africa. I searched and wrote to people in SA and I found there is only 1 group formed and running — and they are Ron’s Org based, and delivering Captain Bill.

          So for one year of communicating, Back In Comm has not gotten any Scientology auditors or supervisors rolling, and no clean up has occurred of the obvious ARCXs and bypassed charge. All that exists is the C of S, or Captain Bill.


          Very disappointing.

          If there are any technical delivery people over there in South Africa, who want to be part of an LRH standard auditing team/group, please contact admin@milestonetwo.org, so that we can hook you up to the 35 existing trained technical people already operating and working together.

  2. Hi Sheeple,

    I began reading Back-In-Comm almost from its inception. And I remember when I saw things changing from a mainly pro-LRH site (there always seems to be a small percentage of commentators who will use it as a platform to forward their BPC on Scientology or the old man) to what it has become now. I left it many months ago as I didn’t need to read any more sites that were mainly negative about Ron or Scientology. People need to get their BPC handled properly in session and then discuss things, if they still need to. In fact, as Ron says, no one has a right to a case, and bank belongs only in session.

    So I loved it when MS2 began this blog where there was a lot of theta and tech wins. On the Facebook forum “Indie Scientology” Ingrid and I decided to push back against all the entheta showing up on the forum about LRH, Scientology, the Church, etc., pushing the media’s and Tony Ortega’s and others’ agenda. And so we began posting a lot of theta in the form of quotes and success stories and commenting on how entheta the other was if it was posted. And the entheta lessened. So perhaps it is a case of applying the tech of flourishing and prospering.

    Frankly, I don’t mind discipline or Ethics being used – rationally. Even if I’m the recipient (and through my 20 years on staff, I’ve been the recipient a few times!), I’d rather have a disciplined and in-ethics group that keeps a firm hand on the tiller than to have to deal with the insanity that seems to often arise if left unchecked (witness Back In Comm, as you point out). And while I’ve risen above a lot of this (still a long ways to go, don’t get me wrong), as Lana astutely points out, there are new people here, newly leaving people here, people still connected who are here who need to see MS2 for what it is – the bastion of sanity that Scientology truly is in a sea of madness.

    Yup, Saturday morning rant/rave combined. Gotta draw up another BP now!

    • Agreed! I read the negative books like barefaced messiah etc to get a balanced view of what these critics were saying and why. There were some valid points obviously. But to come to the conclusion that the tech and LRH is one big con – yeah right!!! Any person who has had enough wins in scn knows better, training makes for even more certainty! Those who fall away obviously didnt have enough of either.

      I would rather do my RUDS actions, continue training and keep up my solo sessions than fight the haters too much. Its amazing how much you can do from one solo session!

      The only periodic pain in the ass thing is having to deal with is psychic interference. Anyone else having this problem?

  3. It is OSA Ints job to make sure groups like ours do not survive. If anyone thinks they are leaving us alone, think again. What happened to Back in Comm was not an accident, it was a designed implosion. The C of S does not want any group to become powerful. Unfortunately their moderator had too many overts and was not as smart as our dear Lana.

    We had a serious attack on MS2 last year by someone who worked his way into our corporation and then did his best to cave us all in and take MS2 down. We survived that by applying LRH Admin tech and he went away nattering and now he posts anti-LRH materials with Karen.


    I posted two OT Wins in this blog last month and that posting was derailed like I have never seen a derailment. Not only was it derailed but fights, out tech and verbal tech broke out in order to make us look like a bunch of idiots. I analyzed all 242 comments and the common denominator was “Theta” Clear.

    The last posting on “Thetan – Life Source” was unbelievably turned into a fight by Peter and a fishing expedition for OSA to find out who has OT VIII materials.

    So Peter, the next time I see you wearing OSA Ints hat I will bounce your ass off of this blog, and for good. You are warned.

    ML Tom

    • Well put, Tom. It’s sometimes forgotten that attacks and such are designed just that way, as you say. I’ve also trained on RB tech and have used it often for RTC, CMO, ITO or my own org, so it’s good to be reminded of that law and the insidiousness with which these things can occur. Thanks.


      P.S. “…a fishing expedition for OSA to find out who has OT VIII materials.” Exactly.

      • Chris: P.S. “…a fishing expedition for OSA to find out who has OT VIII materials.” Exactly.

        I guess it’d be Sec Check season on the Freewinds again … lol. Happy sailing. 🙂

        Pierre Ethier’s write-ups from memory have been on public sites for decades, some forgeries, some close to the real deal. Even if they did find out who leaked it, it’s way too late. There have been multiple completely independent instances from all sides. Special interests truly intent but not associated with FZ/Indies had compromised the most stringent FSO security protocols with considerable ease a little less than a decade ago. CO$ can patch the dykes only so far. I feel confident in due time we’ll have access to everything.

        • Formost,

          Personally I consider the broad release of the Advanced Course Materials a Suppressive Act as covered in the HCOPLs on Advanced Course Security.

          One that RTC who was incorporated to prevent such occurrences is ultimately responsible for.

          Actually if the Sea Org hadn’t become so obsessed with authoritarian “compliance” this would have never happened.

          What actually happened was Robin Cooke and his team went into AOSHDK in the early 80’s posing as Missionares and demanded that AC Admin to hand over the OT Levels which he did without even bothering to question their MOs.

          Yet more was made a matter of public record when they contested Mayo’s authorship of NOTs in Civil Court. They could have settled out of court by paying him off which what they did eventually.

          (Of course Mayo never authored NOTs though he did write the HCOBs based on Lectures and Notes given to him by the Ol’man.)

          More came into public view when they went after David Fishman and Uwe Gertz and they and what is known as the “Fishman Affidavit” came into being which contained altered versions of the OT materials.

          Followed by Arnie Lerma who posted much of this data on a little known Usenet group called Alt Religion Scientology which would have probably remained obscure until Helena Cobrin and OSA sought to “cancel” it which then became a cause célèbre of EFF and other “free speech” advocates who were sucked into believing they were defending free speech on the web.

          In summary it is a mixed blessing that we do have the actual materials including the original OT levels which are no longer offered by the Church. However this does not lessen RTC and OSA’s overt of allowing them to become public knowledge.

          • RV: Personally I consider the broad release of the Advanced Course Materials a Suppressive Act as covered in the HCOPLs on Advanced Course Security.

            I agree. In fact I see to such things myself steadfastly. Aside from the rough-feathered folks you mentioned who have possession of some of it, they will never hit broad release, it’s in absolutely no one’s interests.

            Even the high tech teams here in the Indies will not distribute them to anyone who not supposed to have them.

            • That’s good news Formost.

              Fact as Ron says in Scientology Review:

              5. Incredulity of our data and validity. This is our finest asset and gives us more protection than any other single thing. If certain parties thought we were real we would have infinitely more trouble. There’s actual terror in the breast of a guilty person at the thought of OT, and without a public incredulity we never would have gotten as far as we have. And now it’s too late to be stopped. This protection was accidental but it serves us very well indeed. Remember that the next time the ignorant scoff.

              (end quote)

              No surprise I’ve found many “critics” who claim to have done the OT Levels. Never really did them anyway because it was all so “unreal”.

              Then there are those who claimed they were somehow “scammed” when they hit these upper levels because they were so “unbelievable” or “incredible”.

              One wonders how they go so far by being so ignorant.

              I mean didn’t any of these guys ever read History of Man, COHA, or listen to the PDCs or maybe listen to a lecture that was very popular back in the ’70’s called The Role of Earth.

              Fer christ sake the Briefing Course lectures talk about whole track Implant GPMs.

              Never mind the material a PC can run into running Dianetics. I mean if one really ran Dianetics. Instead of fixate on some PT “traumatic incident” of being spanked unjustly or whatever.

              Some of these guys should sign up with those morons over at CSICOP (who haven’t done a scientific investigation of any kind since their inception) or whatever they are calling themselves these days and others who claim the MEST Universe is God.

              End of rant.

                • The unreality of the upper levels is because of skipped gradients, false data and out RUDS! Doesnt need to get more complicated than that! Out tech, out ethics application too.

                  The complications from above are endless, take your pick on what dramatisations come from the outnesses above 😉

      • Very astute observation Tom.

        I was also trained in RB too and I’d just like to say that if it had properly applied there’d still be an Org there instead of the current Criminal Conspiracy posing as an Org and L1 R/Sers like dear Dave would have been busted.

        From my understanding of the scene is that OSA wants the field to equate Miscavige to the Ol’man and they are getting a lot of help from the so called “critics” on this. This is why when anyone complains about the current out tech and off policy manifestation of the “Scientology Religion” they promote the idea that Miscavige is just following in Ron’s footsteps.

        It doesn’t help when Rinder makes some idiotic statement like Miscavige received more direct communications from the Ol’man with the exception of Mary Sue than anyone else which is just a bald faced lie since most of his orders came to him via Pat Broeker.

        You know the same guy who wrote up the Sea and the Future which is such an obvious forgery and since leaving the Church spent time in Eastern Europe which just happens to be one of CIA’s primary targets for their multicolor coded “revolutions” and is probably why the FSB has the Church over there under constant surveillance.


        That he and RTC is somehow “correcting” the tech and that it was unworkable prior to the alterations known as GAT I and II which is the idea currently promoted by the Church.

        This is basically what Tom Cruise’s sister said on the stage at graduation when she “completed” “new OT V”.

        Regarding blogs like back in comm they get suckered into allowing enemy line to be spread on their blogs. Like allowing some moron to promote Miller’s work of fiction BFM accepted as “fact” by anyone who’s IQ matches their shoe size.

        Or posting bloviations by some guy FKA “Galactic Patrol” pushing the CMO,inJustice Department’s and the media’s party line about the GO.

        But I digress.

        Regarding TC.

        Interesting point.

        How he was hinting at confidential material got me too. Also how he promoted the current rendition the New Grade Chart Streamlined which has obviously been altered from the original.

        Personally when I read the ’87 “revision” more like *alteration* that you waited for the PC to fall flat on his face on ARC SW before doing a full DRD was completely idiotic.

        This is like the old HCOB that repositioned the PTS RD until after Grade IV which I thought was completely insane and it seems the Ol’man agreed by canceling it.

        And then later canceling it again in Tech Correction Roundup on which I’ll forestall my tendency to be lazy and quote as follows:

        What makes tech correct? When it doesn’t get results it is incorrect.

        When it gets the expected result it is correct.

        My own writings and researches are based wholly upon things that got and get results.

        When another, through misunderstood words or other reasons, “interprets” or changes the original tech, it has been the general experience that results are not obtained.

  4. And this is an opportunity to say thanks again to MS2 and the contributing readers/members. I’m glad to have you around.

  5. I hear ya, although in BICs defence the moderators have begun a massive clampdown on LRH bashing from what Ive seen. Thats good. I get what they are trying to do, get people back in comm post church nightmare. Yes their moderation policy got too lax in my humble opinion but I hope it continues to keep an even keel here on out. I dont think even they expected the avalanche of interest they received. It was created as a platform for S.africans in the wake of the initial mass declares. That international exposure brought with it a very diverse and complicated perspective. Some good, some darn right an idiotic. I know many of the commentors personally and its see some of tihem loose it..

    The reason I comment on that blog is because they expose the church for what it is and I get to make new leavers know there is much hope for the tech outside the bubble. I still have friends and family stuck behind DMs iron curtain and I believe they can be extracated by these blogs and the subjects discussed.

    Thank you for your posts. They always give me something to think about and apply.

    • I too hope they (Back in Comm) get back on track. They were a good ally and still have our link posted, which brings new people to our blog and website routinely.

      We, at Milestone Two, will support all efforts to use and apply standard LRH Scientology.

      • Awesome! Perhaps a direct email thats personal asking them whats up? There may be more to it than we realise. Easy to make enemies, far harder to keep good friends I say.

  6. I am going to bring up my own rave, which is “histories” of former members who in one way or another bash LRH and the Tech. These former members seem to have some credibility as they had some high post or were in for some time. What I find interesting is the ones who natter about Ron or the Tech are no longer Scientologists. Inevitably, they always attack the ethics tech!-ie:”when Ron came out with conditions it all went to hell” How outpointy is that!!!??

    I know some real old timers who knew Ron well and who still audit and they LOVE Ron and they have a completely different history! According to them, Yes Ron could get mad, but he had a reason to and he always handled upsets. Then I hear all these great theta stories of the most remarkable man we have had the privilige to get to know!!

    I have my own experiences of someone creating a crazy,completely false attack of me and that person seemingly really believing it themselves!! I had a friend who was going through alot of troubles and was getting evicted. I went over to help her pack. The next morning I got menacing texts that I had stolen her earrings because someone told her that I had probably taken them. -despite my trying to handle her on this-she stuck to her guns. All I did was help!! Years of friendship and help that I had given her all but forgotten. A friendship lost on a lie that was being very deliberately kept in place! I’m sure if someone were to talk to her today those “stolen” earrings would be her only tale of me.

    The other thing that I find equally annoying are bloggers who inflow these negative histories without any questioning like who is this person really? With a sigh and” incredible understanding” some bloggers write “poor Ron was a genius, but he had his flaws.” Give me a f**ing break!!! We have the Tech to eval data!!! We have the Tech to observe others!!

    • Ingrid,

      Many of these former execs are either untrained or poorly trained morons who held a position of power because they were Commodore’s Messengers at one time who then committed various overts by following various illegal orders and signing on to a power push designed to remove the Organization’s first line of defense i.e. the Guardian and Controllers office which allowed hostile forces to seize control of the Organization by claiming to be saving it when in fact it was actually a mutiny.

      Your basic False Flag Operation. Concealed by various legal distractions occurring at the time which included an effort by Flynn and Associates with the help of Ron’s estranged son NIBs NKA as Ron De Wolf to seize Ron’s estate.

      In other words a multi pronged attack accompanied by a lot of other confusion.

      What I call the prior confusion which led to the fixed aberated stable datum of David Miscavige.

    • “…some bloggers write “poor Ron was a genius, but he had his flaws.” Give me a f**ing break!!! We have the Tech to eval data!!!”

      That’s almost exactly what I wrote yesterday on the Scientolipedia site, Ingrid. My jaw just drops when I see it, even though I know it’s coming from specific people.

      But, perhaps this is something to keep in mind:




      • CB:

        Outstanding quote. +1

        I’ve seen more lines jammed simply because people can’t leave it alone when some idiot continues to try to provoke them. At some point, you simply have to let your words stand and ignore the provoker, regardless of what kind of silly drivel they’re spouting. The up side is that at that point, they begin to tell you a great deal more about themselves than whatever they’re trying to say about you.


    • Ingrid:

      I’m always incredulous when I hear stories like this. Whatever happened to honor, loyalty, keeping your own counsel, etc.? How can you just abandon friends, based on what someone else tells you? Stunning.

      When I was in third grade, I had a friend who turned against me at one point. I got him alone in a quiet place and asked him what was going on. He couldn’t really answer me, but I knew it was his friends who had turned him against me, mostly because I was about the only white kid in that school. It was an object lesson on betrayal early in this lifetime that always stuck with me. It didn’t overwhelm me or deeply affect me; mostly it just surprised me, because I hadn’t thought people would actually behave that way. I’d always been taught to be honorable and loyal.

      My step-dad was an honorable and honest man. He was also a big guy, built like an (American) football player. And not prone to being particularly emotional. At one point, he and his ex-wife had a whole circle of good friends. After she fell into the hands of psychs, she managed to turn all their friends against him. Years later, toward the end of his life, I watched him sit in a chair and cry in front of me because he was so hurt by this betrayal. Only a truly profound loss/betrayal could have provoked that kind of behavior from him.

      And despite having seen this kind of thing all through my life, I’m still surprised and somewhat incredulous whenever I hear a story like this. Apparently, honor and loyalty have been strangled out of this civilization, except for a few people and perhaps a few pockets of people.

      How about if we agree to put it back, among ourselves?

      (Yes, I recognize there are times when one simply has to cut someone out of one’s life because they are a source of entheta, etc. I’ve done that myself. But it’s because of conduct I’ve witnessed or endured, not because of some stories people have told me.)


      • Paul,
        I found the tapes in the 19th ACC on Help clarified this sort of thing for me.

        For example:”Help is survival. We are evidently straight back to the old survive-succumb. I had a look at this myself yesterday. And I was quite interested to see that destroy was an Alter-isness but help wasn’t. Now; help could be an Alter-isness low on its own scale, but fairly high on the scale is not an Alter-isness. It is simply the create-create-create section of the cycle-of-action. This stuff wouldn’t even stay there unless you helped it stay there.” 11 Feb 58, The Key Processes of Clearing.

        Also from a tape in the Clearing Congress, The Magic Button:
        “But that, destroy—destroy is looked upon as a method of helping. And this was a fooler to me at first. I thought we were looking at a dichotomy at first; I thought we were looking at help and destroy as two polarities, you see, of something. But we have finally found something in the world which doesn’t have a dichotomy. And that’s why it is so effective. It’s totally associated. It’s an identified thing!
        It is even identified with each part of the cycle of action. It is very helpful to destroy. Destruction is very helpful.”

        These materials on Help provide an insight into behavior that for me resolved all sorts of questions on “how come” this and that. When help is betrayed…well, again, I recommend these tapes.


    • Ingrid, I get exasperated with people who will read something on a blog, and immediately assume that that person’s account of things is true, with no assessment or evaluation or review.
      In several cases, there have been ex-SO members who have never been at Int, with little real experience or reality on management, yet they spout “facts” in articles (on other blogs) about things that they have either assumed, or heard from another (unstated) source. Then the naive readers write to me in shock and horror and wanting confirmation of the facts. All of it ends up just being Developed Traffic (Dev-T). Just a nuisance.

      • Lana, as I said recently on a FB forum, data is data. Now one needs to evaluate it as to accuracy, veracity, source, importances, and pluspoints and outpoints, etc. That in itself would alleviate 90% of the Dev-T one can encounter “out here”. But too many rely on the blog or other source to do this for them; they are unwilling themselves to assume source-point.

      • Lana,I am constantly amazed at the hypnotic state people can be in.That is how SPs can survive-they get ahold of comm-lines and just sit there and spew their lies and entheta. Look at our national comm-lines which are jealously guarded and owned.Somehow, they understand the datum that I learned on the PDCs’ that “outflow equals agreement”
        Why do you think you were so attacked as MS2 with the attempt to shut you down? Your outflow gets agreement!

  7. Ingrid, in my experience more than 2.5 percent of the Sea Org were SPs. Scientology and the Sea Org, as well as org staff, attracted SPs like moths to a light bulb. I think a lot of them joined to suppress the Sea Org and Scientology. I think they scratched and clawed to the top and once there started ripping the innards out of it. It’s no surprise that they got outed by other SPs and once out started to decry LRH and Scientology. It’s actually pretty simple what happened there. No real Scientologist would come out of the Sea Org and talk trash about LRH and Scn. It’s just not possible. Not if you had real case gain (And I am not saying that anyone that didn’t get case gain is an SP).

    I’m gonna guess it was more like 15-20% of Sea Org were suppressive (I’m talking about in the late 90’s because they had already gotten rid of a lot of the good staff). I know that there were at least that many NCGs in the Sea Org. But then again a lot of them were there because they had no where else to go and couldn’t make anything go right, especially their cases.

    But if you take a look at how badly the bridge was shut down for staff, you’ll see the suppression. No, this was not LRH’s design. The SPs at the top kept LRH running around putting out fires while they ordered the destruction.

    ML Tom

    • “But if you take a look at how badly the bridge was shut down for staff, you’ll see the suppression. No, this was not LRH’s design. The SPs at the top kept LRH running around putting out fires while they ordered the destruction.”

      That’s exactly what happened Tom.

      That and the fact that the Ol’man thinking it was under control went off lines to do some writing and wrap up the upper levels.

      Plus sort out the DCSI which was a mess and didn’t have any real handling for people who had gone Clear in an earlier life.

      Anyone who thinks that Ron had the time to sit back and read the false reports coming back from the wrecking crew (who are probably the same ones who think that Ron was watching over the GO’s shoulder when they pulled off that idiotic blunder GO 1361) just weren’t there or probably existed in some alternative universe of total reasonableness.

      And are probably the same ones who think Mayo was some kinda martyred Saint.

      The fact is there always has been a faction of SPs since Scientology’s inception who wanted to seize the actual technology for themselves and leave the public with the empty husk that has been totally hollowed out called the “Scientology Religion”.

      You can call it a “conspiracy theory” if you wish but it happens to be true.

    • “No real Scientologist would come out of the Sea Org and talk trash about LRH and Scn. It’s just not possible.”

      Yup. The operating word here being “real”.

      “Not if you had real case gain….”

      Again, the operating word being “real”.


      • Chris,

        Problem was that senior execs eliminated the chance of making real case gain by eliminating study and enhancement time (unless you were on the RPF) and not instituting DeOp tech which is the tech Ron developed to make staff members more causative and able to stand up to the barrage of illegal and cross orders issued by their seniors.

        (Knowing that one can see why that program was not too popular with some senior execs who merely wanted “Message to Garcia” blind compliance.)

        If you look at Orgs today you’ll find nothing but what we use to call a “Hey You Org Board” where some brass walks in and gives everybody orders and they all drop what they’re doing and comply.

        • Sometimes I consider myself fortunate I never drank from the nectar of GAT. Much of the reported going-ons oftentimes seem so alien to me I cannot relate to, that I sometimes wonder if they’re even talking about Scientology. Even imagining it leaves me in a blank “How could that be?”

        • Ya, you know what happens in the church is that these pesky juniors have the audacity to have case gain and then next thing you know they are smart and more able: They start becoming self-determined and start following policy and the next thing you know they start challenging out tech and stuff like that. Oh the horrors! So the best thing to do is stop that case-gain crap and get back onto the giving orders-and-comply-or-else when things were so much simpler.

          ML Tom

          • My experience in a class V org was precisely that! One started of all starey eyed in awe of the tech, LRH and the church only to have your hopes of OT grinded into the dirt! Having the distinct pleasure of auditing thousands of book 1 hrs to my pc’s kept me out of the insanity which prevailed. In hindsight this kept me in the bubble for longer. I didnt know about indie land. When the regging and off policy got out of hand I opened my mouth to protect my div 6 pcs. Shortly thereafter red lazer dots appeared in the form of comm evs..

            The execs with impossible command intention targets with no ARC or KRC for that matter, were canabalising their public and slave driving the staff – all for no pay and very little enhancement! I waited for 6months to receive my INT rundown as one example. Others had it far worse. DM had no more interest than fleecing his public, slaving to death his minions and building edifices to mark his stamp on Scn!

          • Right Tom,

            I can imagine some of those exec council meetings at Int Base being something like that SPECTRE conference scene in Thunder Ball 😉

            Meanwhile back at the front we had to deal with our own lil’ tin star despots like the CO Communicator who was giving me “advice” on how to audit a case because that’s the way the CO wanted it.

            Maybe it was the time I spent in Qual but anyway I told her and the CO to go f_k themselves or each other if they prefer 😉

            Anyway it was back in the day when you could do fun stuff like that and get away with it if your stats were up.

            I even queried the Ol’man once on something.

            He wrote back and said he’d never seen the “R”ED I was querying him on.


            So it’s easy to see how the comedy team of Broeker and Miscavige can end up doing their own routine and passing ’em off as “R” advices to the assembled moron-tudes. One in particular who insists that the Ol’man communicated to them more than his Ol’lady.

            Probably who’s only response to some of the sh_t that was being shoveled down the line by some plant sponsored by CIA, or the FBI, or some other off source terminal was “Done Sir!” while getting their photo op.

            Anyway Tom some seniors I worked for made me feel like Radar O’Reilly. I actually liked these guys better because they’d defer any decisions to their junior.

            However I must say the best senior I ever had was the Ol’man himself.

            If you had a query on an order he’d clarify it for you and not simply demand that you comply with it blindly.

            But before that he’d have you read and word clear the relevant references so you actually understood what you were supposed to do.

            Yeah I know a novel concept. But one that seemed to work better than some senior screaming his ass into an apoplectic seizure of some kind and then get nothing but a white mutiny of some kind and total resentment.

            Man if Miscavige knew how many staff and public secretly hate he’d be packing up and getting a one way ticket to Venezuela or some other place with no extradition treaty.

            Because who’s ever running Dave, his “friends” as he calls them are going to burn him at some point or hang him out to dry once the Church is totally discredited and the tech is completely invalidated

            Something impossible to do even with the Impossible Mission Team leader Tom the Scientology Cruise missile. Dave’s BFF. Ya know the same guy suggested that Dave concentrate on “Idea Orgs” because his friends who probably use cover names and who’s identities are back stopped were upset by a few errant dust bunnies running around Paris Org.

            Or who knows maybe it was spooky Bob Gray’s over at H&K suggestion that Scientology go “mainstream” and compared Standard Scientology counseling to a Big Mac or as they say in Paris a Mac Royale according to another Scientology hit man.

            Another case of brilliant positioning from the Perception Management company that turned a Fascistic emirate into some bastion of democracy so our MIC could do a lil’ field testing of their weapons systems.


            The reason De-Oppression Tech never got in was pretty much as you say, Tom. Also it might have crossed “Management’s” preference for other tech written by another Hubbard covered in “Message to Garcia”.

            But that’s another story. Like the one about using CIA’s Torture AKA “Enhanced Interrogation”Techniques to keep the staff at Int Base “compliant”.

            So much to tell and so little space to tell it in in these little comment windows 😉

    • TM:

      I defer to your more extensive experience with the SO. But I will echo what a crying shame it was, the extent to which staff cases were ignored and butchered. Apparently, “no case on post” got turned into “doesn’t have a case, so why bother to address it at all”.


    • Thanks Tom. In 1993 I had the unfortunate experience of being posted as the Universe Corps Programs Officer CMO International. That post was hell because my sole function was to build Universe Corps teams for orgs that go Saint Hill size. I was posted at Int level as a Programs Ops, I had absolutely no rank within CMO Int — and I did more than 10 different submissions and presentations, over a period of months, to the Int Management Executive Committee (made up of all WDC members, ED Int and all Exec Ints) to get agreement and approval on key tech trained staff being moved into the UC. Every single presentation was disapproved. Every personnel proposal was disapproved. It was impossible as WDC SO and WDC FSO and WDC FSSO had the highest trained OT Sea Org members and were unwilling to give them up. WDC SCN was supposed to be the one I was working for, and she would just defer under the pressure of others.

      It was a battle of me against CI. Universe Corps is still a mess. Does not exist.

      • Lana,

        I know a lil of the back *horror* story behind UCs death spiral.

        When all us Non-SO were unceremoniously handed our pink slip after AO went Saint Hill Size. I mean obviously some big suppression going on there.

        And then all the other SO Orgs were emptied of all Non-SO based on some shall we interpretation of what Reg Summary of Policy said about “consultant auditors” etc and never mind the fact that the HCOPL Selling and Delivering Auditing says what it says.

        I mean forget about the fact that most HGC and Course Room stats in the PAC area stats rivaled Flags.

        They dumped us.

        And ….duh….they suddenly found themselves lacking tech staff to deliver to the public so they ripped them off from NWC and UC.

        Sooooo idiotic.

        Anyway it was looking like management was operating off the maxim :
        Unmock working installations

        Elipses indicate deletion of the word “don’t”.

        • It is a trademark of DM to unmock working installations.

          He has a disease called “musical-chair-itis” which causes anxiety and perpetual desire to move people from post to post, in a frantic effort to push stats up, while pushing people down.

          • Lana,

            Yeah I read about Davie’s Musical Extravaganza played to the beat of Queen’s Bohemian Rhapsody.

            What a true humanitarian.


            Eliminating the Non-SO from PAC may or not have been by orders of der Führer but it certainly had a lot of support and group agreement.

            We somehow became an evil scourge only comparable to the GO who were considered nothing but a bunch of hired guns and mercs.

            Because we were supposedly ripping off the GI.

            Actually it was Int who was ripping off the GI according to my wife who was working in Treas at the time.

            AO was averaging about 1/2 a mill a week yet couldn’t afford toilet paper because Int was demanding a big chunk of the GI for past debts that were amounting to close to 80% of the income.

            Plus there was other strange stuff going on that Tom mentioned in an earlier post like a jumper at CCI but not only that seems someone mislaid about a big bag of cocaine in one of the rooms at the Manor.

            Something that Security managed to find and flush just hours before the ever friendly LAPD came knocking on the door with a warrant.

            AO HGC was getting a bunch of cases who were Former Intel Officers. In fact I queried the D of P why these guys wouldn’t be considered illegal per policy and was told that they were “former” spooks.

            Yeah ok.

            But from what I understood “former” usually meant they were dead.

            Anyway none of the Sea Org staff there knew anything about delivering the original OT levels which were sorta handed out under the table like I wrote earlier kinda like In&Out’s secret menu.

            Then around ’89 they started dumping Non-SO staff which happened almost date coincident to PsiCorp going into operation.

            Also around that time anything that involved what any Sea Org were doing was on a Need to Know basis only. In other words they were closing terminals with their fav scape goat the GO.

            I tried telling Marty and Mike there was a lot more going on than just what was happening at Int Base but they seem to give the idea that Int knew where every sparrow fell and the location of every blade of grass growing.

            Yet there was a much bigger picture where Dave they say is the ultimate source was only a small player.

            That said. It’s nice that we have a space that allows multiple viewpoints about what happened that is not like the patronizing blogs posted by former Int Execs who claim they know everything.


    • I worked at the Int base for 13 years. For that entire time period DM was constantly on the witch hunt for SPs, and every fourth, and then every third, and then every second person was one, and was offloaded.

      The Int base went from 900 + staff to less than 300. Then I was found to be an SP, and I too was offloaded (a bit like the children’s song about “there were X in the bed, and the little one said, roll over, roll over, and they all rolled over, and one fell out…”

      I am sure the base numbers are down to about 150 by now, or less (with an additional influx of new 18 – 22 year old newbies who are naive, will take any PR line, and have absolutely no clue of what is actually going on (or what Scientology actually is).

      Always makes it hard to find the real SPs when there is an SP doing the hunting.


    • Tom yes!!! These SPs created unbelievable destruction while they were in,particularly those at the top. Then when they got out they continued their destruction and put the blame on what happened on Ron and the tech and how they were only victims of such a “horrible system!!! ” There are alot out here who are very charged up from the outtech and they can go mutually outruded with the very same SPs who created their condition!! Its an inability to spot source and boy do these SPs rely on that!!!
      The upside is when I take people in for auditing they can shift their VP180 degrees-Suddenly Ron and the tech really are great and Ron’s “flaws” or whatever crap they have been fed don’t seem to matter anymore! Now Ron and the tech are the SOURCE of feeling great!
      Source is quite high on the awareness scale-on the Grade chart it is at Otlll-It takes training and auditing to really get good at seeing source.. A person with alot of O/Ws will have lot of problems with seeing source-often they are seeking out who, other than themselves is really source of their misery.So it is important to have blogs like MS2 to keep showing people source REAL source! It does have to be spelled out! Most importantly it is important to keep getting trained and audited

  8. Well said. For many years I sat on the outside having been declared illegally, and with no recourse within the church that I had given many years of service to. Milestone 2 was a breath of fresh air. I have studied the axioms as part of my HPA (and once could recite them verbatim) but it never made sense to me that one could handle an issness by force and entheta.as attempted by the church.
    In Milestone 2 I have a forum of beings who are high toned enough to be able to enjoy LRHs work and the wins it provides.
    For me, those who attempt to handle by hate have not learnt the power of ARC and understanding.
    I feel for those who do not really understand the subject. I am aware that being on staff makes learning the subject difficult, but not impossible. I have been on staff and I was able to insist on study time.
    The basic policy that the OSA relies on appears to be “Fair Game” which LRH cancelled because it was unnecessary and created bad PR.
    The faults we see with the church are merely the dramatization of the reactive mind. For those of us who have explored it over many hundreds of hours, there are enough dramatizations and evil purposes to explain any of the lower toned destruction and hate that we can observe. And we choose not to be part of it.
    It is my observation that it is so much easier, and requires so little brainpower to destroy something, whereas create is quite a challenge,.hence our terrorists think they can save the world by terror when the truth is that communication and understanding are the key.
    I have always enjoyed to look on someone’s face when I have asked for an explanation of some illogical dramatization. They start carefully explaining the loge of their ways to me til that point that the penny drops and the usual cognition of “I see what you mean.” occurs. And I work so hard to hide what I really think.
    Understanding … I seem to recall an axiom about that.

    • “For me, those who attempt to handle by hate have not learnt the power of ARC and understanding.”

      Interesting, Bernie. I was just reading this and then read your post:




    • Bernie,

      Fair Game originally meant could be lied to cheated on whatever without any protection from ethics then some bright bulb from somewhere decided to alter the “could” to “should”. Typical add word or subtract a word or change the definition of a word either by mis-us or basic evil intentions.

      Admittedly the GO in their ends justify the means style did this such as Operation Freak Out but OSA has taken that type of behavior as they say over there “to a whole new level” and their stats on making enemies is probably “straight up and vertical”.

      Back then we didn’t really have to work hard at making enemies because we had ’em. Big ones like the AMA, FDA, CIA, etc, etc. Though for the most part the public was on our side.

      Now with their tax exempt status fully intact and they’ve made that unholy pact with the IRS (that is to rat out anyone who isn’t paying their proper amount of tax to the “Tax Cruds”) and are BFF with that inveterate bunch of Nazis at InterPol. They figure they don’t need public support.

      OSA as far as I’m concerned is nothing but a festering carbuncle on the sorry ass of the Organization.

      I think you have to Rock Slam on at least one item of list one and have had absolutely no case gain before they allow you on OSA staff 😉

  9. During the time period when LRH was in Creston, as he did continually over the years, he concentrated on the refinements and applications of the Technologies of Dianetics and Scientology. He remarked that David Miscavige was too heavily concentrated on “legal” when he should have been working on delivery. This divergence off the mainline of what Dianetics and Scientology are actually all about, was and is a fatal flaw. You can see it in the persisting of battles, the imbroglio that some seem to live for and in, and the waste of time spent on things that don’t resolve the underlying scene to any real result.

    Auditing and training are the purpose of MS2. Real results with LRH’s Dianetics and Scientology.

    Effective handling of distractions from that purpose, is a function that must be maintained.

    Fortunately, there are no shortage of those capable of doing so, that are aware of the ploys, familiar with the manoeuver, and versed in the technique, that, like LRH, recognize where the attention should be, and keep it there, while dealing with the pain in the arse that some of this goofus nonsense presents.

    • Jim: He remarked that David Miscavige was too heavily concentrated on “legal” when he should have been working on delivery.

      Thanks for the historical tidbit. I can surmise LRH charged DM in running the church? I ask since it conflicts with data from other blogs that suggest there was a Broeker/Miscavige Power struggle. Perhaps some other fill-in-the-blank is missing?

      • Formost,

        From what I understand Ron never charged DM with running anything other the special project he was assigned to over at ASI.

        Even then I believe it was at Pat Broeker’s suggestion.

        If you read the HCOPL LRH Relationship to Orgs. You will find where ASI would have fit in the scheme of things.

        Also if you read the policy you will see that Ron had no plan for Miscavige or anyone else to succeed him as Founder or as “Department 21”:

        Anyone on high executive and Accounts lines should understand these things thoroughly and LRH Communicators should point them out.
        Only when these relationships are misunderstood do we get in trouble.
        Our growth depends on our staying out of trouble, getting our lines in and keeping corporate structure straight. And understanding these separate identities or titles and functions and using them.
        It is doubtful if this situation will change. As orgs grow, my assistants grow also and become more competent and refer less to me and work on delegated authority. My work is lighter the bigger we get so eventually I will hold only titles with no actions or duties. This can be continued easily and so there is no need to reduce identities to simplify lines. And there wouldn’t even be a need to reorganize if I wasn’t there in the flesh at all. All I need to do is work out a succession of assistants to make the activities continue.

        ***There is no succession of myself to be worked out in any identity regardless of what happens to me simply because I did the original work and as it is done there is no reason to have a succession for it as it is itself.***(emphasis added mine)
        My identities are therefore woven in to the pattern so they don’t have to be altered to keep things going. LRH an individual becomes an estate. The rest is by appointment from “LRH Executive Director” with that title activated by the Int AdCouncil or board but still used as a title but not of a person. The “Office of LRH” is part of org structure. And before long even LRH “a board member” will be, needless to be filled in the flesh, by delegated signature of LRH.

        This is not only today then, but tomorrow as well and the above identities are firm as identities whether I am here or not. Even today 99% of my functions are done by delegated authority. The I % left is heavy enough for 20 men but it is getting lighter each year and so can be seen to be only a post in a few years and so it can continue.

        Trying to fill up the post is all that would cause “a war”, so leave it activated as itself, none assigned to it, assistance to it by established formula. We won’t vanish if I as a person vanish. And these identities never were me anyway so they can survive. It is a part of basic org structure. My post title is used ten thousand times a day on matters I never will hear of, so why should I hear of any in the long run as only the delegation of authority is in action anyway.

        So whatever happens to me as a person leave these LRH identities on the org board unfilled and ail will be well. If you try to fill them catastrophe will result. Only how authority is delegated by “LRH Executive Director” in my absence needs to be worked out and that will be published.

        Somebody some day will say “this is illegal”. By then be sure the orgs say what is legal or not.

        (end of quote)

        In my opinion we should not add any persistence to the **lie** that Miscavige was appointed by Ron in any way to succeed him.

        Miscavige and the power push he was part of seized control of the Organization by eliminating the Controller’s Office C/S G then filing the vacuum.

        To claim that he is the leader of the Church by virtue of the fact he happens to be the Chairman of a non-existant Board at RTC is another lie. Since the most senior org in Scientology’s hierarchy is *not* RTC but CST which holds all copyrights and has the power to assume all trademarks.

        David Miscavige is a pretentious pretender who holds this position of “Leader” by a false agreement and nothing else.

        • Robin,

          That policy was written in 1966. You don’t think that things might have changed or his viewpoint changed in the 20 years between then and 1986? If you recall our recent discussion on the PL about misrepresentation of Dns and Scn (and while LRH may have had some attention on it back in 1953, it wasn’t any real issue to him as witness nothing being done about it until this policy supposedly written by him that leaves the door open to protecting the CoS as it currently stands), it is possible that Ron did change the priorities in this regard to wanting to leave something/someone to oversee the CoS in his absence, not to replace him as Source (which is one o the many outnesses that DM is doing), only to run it. Point is, there are variations of views on this but I don’t see it as concrete as you seem to put it here. Not like it’s “green on white”. 😉


          • Back in ’66 huh?

            Well KSW was written two years earlier and it is just as applicable now as it was then.

            One policy HCOPL Policy; Source of HCO POLICY LETTER OF 5 MARCH 1965 Issue II

            HCO Policy Letters are printed or (more commonly) mimeographed in green ink on white paper. This colour combination may not be used for any other releases in Scientology. Reprinted policy letters sometimes appear in magazines in black ink on white paper but they are not the original.

            HCO Bulletins are printed or mimeographed in red ink on white paper. This colour combination may not be used for any other purpose in Scientology. Reprinted HCO Bulletins sometimes appear in magazines in black ink on white paper but they are not the original.

            Committees of Evidence are called for in any violation of the publishing or counterfeiting of an HCO Policy Letter or an HCO Bulletin or their colour combinations or signatures.
            The only other official paper from L. Ron Hubbard and HCO is the HCO Executive Letter, usually a direct executive order or a request for a report or data or news or merely information. It is not policy but should be answered if an answer is requested. It is blue ink on green paper.
            Using the colour combination for any other purpose or counterfeiting one calls for a Committee of Evidence.
            Sec EDs and HCO Executive Letters are basically LRH comm lines but are used by International Board Officers also if authorized.

            The other Divisions (2 and 3) have other means of comm, with other colour flashes. ————————

            If it is not in an HCO Policy Letter it is not policy.

            HCO Policy Letters do not expire until cancelled or changed by later HCO Policy Letters.

            No officer or Scientology personnel may set aside policy even when requesting revision.
            Copyright® 1965
            by L. Ron Hubbard
            L. RON HUBBARD

            Also he did leave not one individual but a Board of Trustees in Charge under Trust B which is last will and testament and this was supposed to be CST.

            Anyway I respectfully disagree that we need any one person in charge or that we need a leader of some kind. Especially in an Organization that is supposed to be based on Self Determinism.

            My view.

            • I didn’t say we needed one person in charge; my views on what should have occurred are my views. However, as I do know about priority of issues and such (including that policies are to forward purpose and if they do not, they can be cancelled as purpose is senior to policy – Ron wrote that, you know), that wasn’t what I was getting at. I know KSW is still applicable. I know the 66 policy would be as well, although it was Ron’s viewpoint then. My point was we cannot assume Ron changed his viewpoint on some things but not on others, which is what it seems has been communicated here, unless I’ve tracked wrongly. That’s all. The other point is that there can be a lot of assumption re the corporate sort-out and MAC and how the corporate structure was to endure or continue after his passing. But a lot of conjecture even if backed by snippets of info scattered about still leave some questions unanswered and those holes get filled with opinions. At least it needs to be, as you said somewhere, issued in a booklet form!


              • Chris,

                They issued some command channels chart back in the early ’90’s that was supposed to explain the corporate structure.

                Funny thing as in strange CST isn’t even on it and RTC was floating around it like some errant UFO with no lines connecting it to anything on the Org board.

                But I guess it was better’n nutting. Now the Org boards hidden somewhere in the Orgs back closet if they got one and most Orgs are totally hey you.

                Mac was actually supposed to handle Ron’s personal liabilities but ended up crossing over and poaching on the GO’s turf which was assigned to them by Ron and known as Mission Corporate Category Sort-out.

                I don’t know how great the new structure was compared to the old.

                Actually the old one was less complicated than the new one with CSC, HASI and HCO Ltd.

                The new one has about 100 different corporations all that have tax exempt status.

                • That’s another way to tell LRH – he dealt in simplicity. DM and crew are complex and their products are complexities. As are what they write and issue, even if they “say” it’s from LRH.

                  • Chris,

                    I personally don’t know how much of Ron’s input there was in the current corporate structure. Though I do know CST was his idea as it is part of Trust B.


                    The “R” actually should stand for “Rogue” Technology or more accurately Squirrel Technology may have been Mayo’s idea based on Ron’s request to establish a corporation related to protecting the Technology as Mayo is listed as one of the original trustees.

                    Fact is that Ron did have trepidations about granting RTC with control of both copyrights and trademarks which is probably why he incorporated CST the year after granting it the option to purchase all Trade and Service marks if RTC fell into hostile hands.

                    The only problem is that RTC has the power over licensing organizations, missions and field auditors and they have used that power to seize control over the entire Scientology Network and have basically turned CST into a paper tiger.///////////////////

            • “Anyway I respectfully disagree that we need any one person in charge or that we need a leader of some kind. Especially in an Organization that is supposed to be based on Self Determinism.”

              One other thing, Ron did write that a benign monarchy was a better form of government; he also wrote that an org needs a thetan at the helm; he also wrote that people have the bank in common but individuals don’t; etc. The org can’t be run self-determinedly right now as it isn’t up to that level on the scale (ref: 0-8 scales and COHB and COA); to be honest, I think it would take a trained Clear minimum, if not a Class VIII OT VII to step outside that box. To many other factors still in play along the dynamics otherwise. IMO.

              • Hey Chris,

                There ya go accusing of not having a ref and then there ya are saying that Ron wrote that a Monarchy is the best forma Goberment.

                I suspect its cause you’re one of them there Royalists being from the Great White North and all that 😉

                I think I know the HCOB which is Politics but I don’t think he says that is the best kinda Gov only that other forms are an effort to solve the problem of succession.

                Anyway I haven’t read a single issue where Ron said he was turning the show over to anyone especially not some pint sized moron with delusions of grandeur.

                As far as I’m concerned the above PL stands. Lessen you can find a revision that wasn’t written by the CIA or Mead Emory or ….

            • Ok. Signing off for the night. Broadcasting will resume tomorrow at our regularly scheduled time.

              (Do you know, when I was 3 or 4, just at the advent of TV in homes, but we had radio still, my dad used to tell me the music playing on the radio was from a tiny orchestra inside the box and when they signed off at night, they went up the antenna and dissipated through the ether until the next night when they’d come back and resume playing, and I believed him? Same guy that told me that thunder came from clouds bumping together. Come to think of it, the thunder thing sounded a lot more plausible than the tiny radio orchestra. But hey, what the hey, I think I’ll turn in and go listen to the radio! Night.)

              • Radio?

                Your real old school dude.

                I’ve got iTunes cranking while typing aimlessly on the keyboard hypnotized by my computer screen.

                Though I do remember radio. Had one of those old RCA’s which was given to me by my Gran pappy with the dial back lit giving me this warm fuzzy glow while….

                Now ya got me nostalging away ya big lunk.

                Anyway g-night big guy 😉

        • Thanks for this post, very eye-opening. 🙂

          HCOPL 4 Jan 66 VI LRH RELATIONSHIPS TO ORGS … in the 1991 OEC Vols, unrevised, a pretty far cry from “Ecclesiastical Leader” … which I guess is simply an invented title never mentioned by LRH. Phenomenal amount of BS that boy created.

          • As RV points up, this is a key PL in one’s sort out of what IS in writing by LRH on how things are should go, when he did.

          • Yeah Dave doesn’t even apply Scientology. He applies Dale Carnegie tech. Says ya get power from when people listen to you least that’s what he said in that puff piece “The Man Behind Scientology” which is the same tech that Chuck Manson who was a big fan of Dale too used to apply in a family way if ya know what I mean.

            Funny that his bro is in the Used Car Biz these days. Guess it runs in the family.

        • It’s my understanding that the guy running the Church is supposed to be ED Int (formerly Guillaume LeSevre), and the folks who were supposed to take over LRH’s other hats were the Watchdog Committee. Am I missing something?


      • No, not to my knowledge did LRH charge Miscavige, nor any other individual, with running the/a church, any of the churches, CST, RTC, CSI et al.

        Nothing he put in writing stated anything like any one individual was to assume charge, command etc.

        What IS in writing is the LRH Estate Plan. That wasn’t given broad public release by DM or anyone, when it should have been the substance of the event they held at LRH’s passing from that body.

        The comment was in regard to the attention of Miscavige on “legal” whereas delivery, training, auditing is, was, and will be the key area since that is exactly how far Scientology will go – as far as it gets results.

        • Jim,

          You’re probably right that Trust B should have been issued but there was also an earlier RED Today, Tomorrow and the Future of Scientology and RJ 38 that pretty much laid it out.

          But you are right. Trust B should have been issued at that time so most Scientologists weren’t stuck in the mystery of what comes next.

  10. Something that might have pertinence to recent events here on MS2 as well as anywhere and at anytime:





  11. By the way, let’s dispense with this business of “I have every right to express my opinion…” No, you don’t.

    You have the right to express your opinion on, guess where? Your own blog. That’s it. Everywhere else, your “right” is at the discretion of the person who owns the blog. Period. Each blog comes with its own rules, and if you want to be welcome there, you follow them. It’s not hard to figure out.

    I get cranky with people who assert they have every right to their own opinion. Yes, you do. On your blog. And even if you are allowed to express your opinion here, it’s not a right; it’s a privilege. And your privilege can be instantly revoked if you disobey the rules. I know; it sucks to be you.

    And it’s not that anyone is particularly keen to censor you. They’re not. Trust me when I say, no one wants to censor you, least of all the blog owner.

    Another ploy used by disrupters and agitators is to explain how they have an obligation to set everyone else straight about this or that. While this may be true of some posters, it is most often used by those who are trying to make a point no one wants to hear. They want to be listened to and agreed with, and will become more strident and louder the fewer people they believe are in accord with them.

    That’s it for “Today’s Rant”. “Our Blog” will continue after this special word from our sponsors….



    • ** Note from Moderator — Pepito: you are correct in pointing out that Nickname felt driven away by someone he felt was a troll, and that Scatjappers was also targeted. Moderation is a challenge, on many fronts, and we learn, unfortunately, sometimes by our mistakes. TC is on moderation and is not permitted to post unless he abides by the moderation policy of this blog. Let’s move on now, and continue with the job at hand. There is no witch hunt here and we all have better things to do with our time.

      Paul said: “Today’s Rant”.

      Nickname @ November 1, 2014 at 2:15 pm said:
      “here’s a link to an article I posted elsewhere.
      It got too compacted, trying to keep it short. I no longer post there because the moderator allowed what I consider to be a troll, and I just don’t mess with people who insult me, or moderators who think insults are ‘free speech.’”
      Quoted from: http://backincomm.wordpress.com/2014/10/30/travers-harris-my-life-in-scn-the-so/comment-page-1/#comment-13101

      I felt I needed to comment when TC (Pedrito) insulted Paul’s intelligence, also misleading him.
      For those who didn’t read it, you can read it starting here
      thetaclear @ October 10, 2014 at 5:48 pm

      For those who like reality shows, the previous episode start here
      Pepito @ October 19, 2014 at 6:40 pm

      That’s it for “Today’s Rant”. Stay tuned; don’t miss the next episode …

      • I’m sorry, I don’t understand who’s talking here, who’s quoting, who’s providing the links, whose post this is. However, I did follow one of the links and found Nickname’s entire passage here:

        “It got too compacted, trying to keep it short. I no longer post there because the moderator allowed what I consider to be a troll, and I just don’t mess with people who insult me, or moderators who think insults are “free speech.” There are two Class VIII’s who also post there, and not one of them posted anything in the comments. Not one. Another example of overts of omission because there is no direction. Moderation is necessary on a blog, not optional. There is positive, and there is negative, and the two don’t mix well. There must be a definition of positive. Not just a “whatever.””

        That was “Nickname”. Seems, no matter what else, there’s a bit of “came, found it bad, and left.” He also criticizes the Class VIIIs for not commenting – contrary to the definition of enforced communication and the Code of Honor, not to mention assuming something without understanding what – and the moderators for not ensuring the VIIIs commented. Seems he also wanted agreement for his post. So I don’t buy that it was just “he felt driven away by a troll” with comments like that. Not per what I’ve studied of LRH.

    • All:

      Just for the record, the above comment from me was not made with any particular incident in mind, nor any particular person. I’ve just seen this phenomena a lot on blogs and mailing lists.


      • That’s how I took it, Paul. I thought it an excellent post and I’ve brought this up on other forums a number of times. I think you’re spot on in your take on how this happens on blogs, etc.

        • CB:

          I was co-founder of a Linux users group years ago, and ended up being the admin for several lists we organized for the group. So I’m familiar with list rules, behavior and discipline. Blogs appear to have similar afflictions. The benefit of blogs is that the moderator has considerable control over content. On our mailing lists I didn’t have that degree of control. Once an email hit the list, it couldn’t be retracted. Fortunately, our lists were relatively self-correcting (as is this blog) and I rarely had to ban anyone. Here, Lana (and/or other moderators) exerts reasonable control, not too much, not too little. And the list self-corrects to some extent. All in all, job well done. Especially when you consider that list/blog admining/moderating is a lot like herding cats.



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