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By Lana M.

Just wanted to communicate a win.

I have two boys, as many of you know — one is 9 years old and the other is 5. Both are lively and good natured, but as they have grown there are routinely disputes between the two. Not uncommon, as any parent knows, but a challenge nevertheless.

Over the last 6 months it has worsened to a point where my oldest has been getting very nattery about his younger brother, and it has become routine that he will get very irritated by his actions and then lash out, yell, punch or kick. There is a large difference in size and the result is always tears – normally on both sides – as the 5 year old is smaller but resourceful and clever, so he will use his nails to retaliate, or he will simply wait for another time to break something, push buttons or place a well aimed whack.

I have been working to resolve this situation and have tried education on TWTH (which improved things for a while) and have educated them on overts, withholds and their consequences — but my oldest has not been receptive, instead firmly on a motivator and victim flow.

Tonight, I finally got headway.

Simple little process:  “What has (brother) done to you?” followed by “What have you done to (brother)?” Once he was actually in session and really looking and answering the questions, OMG — instant TA.  We got yawns. We got giggles. We got comm lags. And then we got a cognition.

Kept it light and simple — but persisted till we took it to a good point and EP.

There will be more — but I had a win getting a child to step outside of a constant overt/motivator flow and look at what HE has been doing that has been contributing to the situation.

37 thoughts on “What did you do to…?

    • Thanks Jonathon,
      I have not had a lot of success with amends projects unless there was an agreed responsibility for whatever occurred. It is an interesting test to try and bring another up by his own boot straps without personally giving them a yank. He/she has to come to a need of change and a desire to resolve the problem they are encountering…. which sometimes takes a little patience (or gently rubbing their nose in it)

  1. Great win Lana!

    It might be a good idea to check for a pts situation as well. A minority of boys can be terrible bullies and at that age it is easy for kids to pick up those sorts of valances.

    I know it is politically incorrect but I taught my kids how to punch and make the first one count.

    • Ah, PC, the great leveler. F’ing crap viewpoint (not you, 4a, just that whole concept). Whoever started it should have been shot. Better to learn how to communicate and how to grant beingness rather than how to be “oh so nice and theetie-weetie and politically correct, on my!”

      PC ruins good games. I’m tired of “everyone’s the same” and “you have to acknowledge and believe in everyone’s ideals”. I believe in truth, and PC is seldom anywhere near the realm of truth.

      Bah, humbug! Christmas came early; end of rant.

    • Good point 4a. A few years back there was a kid at school that was a bully and one of my kids was constantly getting involved in fights and disputes in the school yard. I found that my kid would flip into the valence of the bully and though this was better than being a victim, it certainly did not resolve it.

      The tech of bringing a person to gentle cause works 100% of the time and is a great way to stop the flipping in and out of valence.

    • 4a:

      There’s a story LRH tells about his childhood, and I can’t recall where the reference is. But it goes more or less like this: there was a family of bullies in his neighborhood at one point, victimizing everyone in sight. Ron enlisted the help of his grandfather, who taught him a crude form of Judo called lumberjack fighting. Thereafter at some point, Ron jumped off of a board fence feet first and pummeled one of these little turds. Then the next and the next, until the neighborhood finally became safe again for other kids.

      I think this adequately communicates LRH’s viewpoint on violence used for a just cause. And that, for me, trumps all the politically correct people. Ron also talks about having to physically discipline children from time to time, another blow to the politically correct crowd.

      Political correctness was something I believe was dreamed up originally from the psychs, but ultimately of the most use to the communists in keeping in line their “victims”. As such, it should be of no use to us. And those of our group who engage in it or think in those terms should reevaluate their use of the idea. Perhaps they should instead think in terms of “granting beingness” instead. And learning to properly “thump” people when they get out of line (as in
      repeatedly neglecting to exercise proper decorum and such).

      Anyway, bravo to you for teaching your kids a useful skill.

      Paul

      • Paul,

        It comes from one of the most beautifully written treatises on ethics and justice, and their differences: HCO PL 7 Dec 1969 I, Ethics, The Design Of. It’s too bad this subject is so vastly misunderstood not only in the church, but in the field – including the independent field – as well. This policy also explains how DM was able to rise to power and to “chrome-steel” control. I’ve excerpted the part about the fence and judo here.

        “It is very easy for a staff member and even an Ethics Officer to completely misunderstand ethics and its functions. In a society run by SPs and controlled by incompetent police, the citizen almost engramically identifies any justice action or symbol with oppression.

        Yet in the absence of true ethics no one can live with others and stats go down inevitably. So a justice function must exist to protect producers and decent people.

        To give you an example, when a little boy this life, the neighborhood a block around and the road from home to school were unusable. A bully about five years older than I named Leon Brown exerted a very bad influence over other children. With extortion by violence and blackmail and with corruption, he made the area very dangerous. The road to school was blocked by the five O’Connell kids, ranging from seven to fifteen who stopped and beat up any smaller child. One couldn’t go to school safely and was hounded by the truant officer, a hulking brute complete with star, if one didn’t go to school.

        When I was about six, I got very tired of a bloody nose and spankings because my clothes were torn and avidly learned “lumberjack fighting,” a crude form of judo, from my grandfather.

        With this “superior tech” under my belt, I searched out and found alone the youngest O’Connell kid, a year older than I, and pulverized him. Then I found alone and took on the next in size and pulverized him. After that the O’Connell kids, all five, fled each time I showed up and the road to school was open and I convoyed other little kids so it was safe.

        Then one day I got up on a nine-foot-high board fence and waited until the twelve-year-old bully passed by and leaped off on him boots and all, and after the dust settled that neighborhood was safe for every kid in it.

        So I learned about justice. Kids would come from blocks away to get help in their neighborhood. Finally for a mile around it was a safe environment for kids.

        From this I learned two lessons:

        1. Strength is nothing without skill and tech and, reversely, without skill and tech the strength of brutes is a matter of contempt.

        2. Strength has two sides, one for good and one for evil. It is the intention that makes the difference.” LRH

        • CB:

          Ah yes, wonderful reference.

          When MS2 first started, there was a passage or two in its founding documents about a justice function to be performed by the group as needed. I was shocked by the negative reaction to this in the Field, as LRH lays the proper reasoning out in the above reference. How could one possibly deny the need for a justice function in any group? And you can’t simply denigrate a justice function of a group until you’ve seen it enforced (properly or improperly).

          I agree that the subject is widely and vastly misunderstood (and mis-applied). I’ve been the recipient of many such misapplications of justice. But I also recognize (mainly because of policy letters like the above) that it isn’t the design or existence of justice that’s bad, but its imperfect (or perverted) application that drive the confusion.

          And of course, there is the objection to positive justice which would be expected from those who would rightfully become its targets.

          Thanks for the policy reference, Chris. Good catch.

          Paul

  2. Hi Lana,

    Look what I found ! 🙂
    http://www.ronsorg.ch/buecher/miraclesforbreakfast.pdf

    Chapter 3 is entitled “He Hit Me First”, and in it Ruth Minshul describes her adventures with her two sons who were the same age as your boys at the time. I found this book entertaining and useful back in the day.
    Apparently hard copies are also available on Amazon.

    Well Done on auditing them, listening to them, and educating them about how overts, motivators, withholds and missed withholds rebound back to them.
    Another idea might be do discuss how each one might do something to help the other one…..for real.
    Another might be to find things that each one likes about the other other one.
    And 4a’s idea of checking for any possible bullying happening outside the home is a good thing to check and eliminate as a possibility might be a good first step.

    So, keep up the good fight….probably a poor choice of words on my part. 🙂 But, you’ll cook up something.
    This is why I said in an earlier post that caring parents, more than military men should be the recipients of Congressional Medals of Honor because they contribute more to society.

    • Thank you Espiritu. Such a great book!

      I have had my boys to TRs from time to time, and they absolutely love them. They both go into absolute glee and hysterics once they are facing each other. It is hard to get them to sit there straight faced for any longer than a few minutes, but after we work through it to a win, they always ask to do more.

      • Yep, you got your ‘work’ cut out for you, Lana! 🙂 Supporting the observations of Espiritu, I cannot over=emphasize the value of MFB.

        Back in the day, after a particularly irksome period of squabbles, all it became necessary for me to do, was bark out loud: “THAT’S IT! —CHAIRS!!!” That would be the end of said squabbles. 15 minutes later, peace and tranquility reigned .. Ruth’s advice became the automatic ‘broker’ The kids eventually looked forward to the natural outcome. Win, win, and theta validations for their efforts.

        Just for the price of (ultimately) ONE word, uttered with tone 40 — “CHAIRS!” (efficient handlings do it for me, you see!!) 🙂

  3. LM:

    I’ve mentioned this before, but I’ll reiterate it here. I always wondered why LRH wrote and spoke so little about teenagers, where the stuff you mentioned become magnified greatly. I always wondered why there was no “special tech” for handling the bad behavior of teenagers. Finally I reasoned that it must be because the “regular” tech we know already fit the bill. That being the case, the question would then become, “what piece of Tech is most involved in the behavior and ultimate resolution of the problem of teenage behavior” (most particularly, disrespect, rebellion, venom and such issued by teenagers toward parents). The answer centered around the tech of overts and withholds. As a child moves into his teen years, you can imagine how this might be the case. It also explains why some children never go through this phase (I never did).

    This being the case, your choice of explaining and getting them to see how the O/W mechanisms work is an exceptionally wise one when done early and then emphasized as they continue to age. This way, when they get to be teenagers, there hopefully won’t be any question in their minds what’s going on.

    To give you an obliquely related example, when I was first married to my first wife, I came home one day and she was suddenly all over me, exceptionally snotty, critical, etc. I stopped for a moment to consider what was going on, and then sat her down to explain the mechanism of O/W. She was a green Scientologist (but as it turned out a last lifer). Once I was done, she collapsed into a weeping puddle and confessed she had gone out-2D on me. Problem resolved. I had pointed out the change in her behavior and then given her the Tech of how that change might occur. It hit right at the heart of what she had done, and she instantly cognited on the mechanism and how it applied and had progressed.

    Your kids may not ultimately be that easy to handle, but at least if they get into their teen years and begin to hate their mom (my daughter hated me), they may more easily be able to understand why it’s happening and resolve the situation. And if you’re lucky, they never will go through that phase. Lord knows, they couldn’t ask for a better mother, from what you’ve said.

    Sometimes I marvel at how lucky we are to have this Tech at our disposal. How much further ahead are we than the average human in handling the problems of life?

    Paul

    • SJ here are some references on teenagers you might find interesting.

      EXTERIORIZATION FROM MASSES
      Lecture 10
      A Lecture Given On 8 January 1 9 5 4

      “And after he’s been at it for a few years—he’s already gone to school, I think, something on the order of about twelve years in his more basic schools—now all of a sudden he’s in college and he’s got four more years to go. By this time, he’s studying engineering (he’s thirty-five or thirty-six), [laughter] but anyway, all joking aside, the boy is there in his adult years.

      The society is goofy on the subject of trying to make a teenager into a child. The teenager—for instance, such operations as Booth Tarkington’s Seventeen—there’s a book there. That’s real vicious, that’s real mean. Because in the first place, the reason the guy is like that is because he’s been disenfranchised of his first manhood. His first manhood sets in, actually, at about fourteen—thirteen, fourteen.

      He starts to get a grip on life—that’s past the age of puberty usually—and he’s looking around, he’s trying to establish himself and his family keeps holding on to him. And he’s unable to get away from his family. And they’ve even got the laws in the United States fixed so a child can’t work, he can’t support himself. And he’s got to stay there.”

      Heres another one, which I have tried to find the title for for the past couple of hours, but someone with a better search engine might be able to find it. Here is the subject matter.

      “You see kids in their teens, no matter how their parents have been to them, they’ll find all manner of things wrong with their parents so that they’ll have the right to be themselves. That’s just the way life divorces itself from its past track and carries on its own determinism.”

      This is really interesting and explains a lot for me as a parent. I found if you apply this one, the kid goes from being your child to your friend, and thats nice 🙂 Sure youve got the o/w tech but as an overwhelming purpose for the kid growing up, he/she just wants to be self determined and as a parent, our job is to help them achieve that.

      • 4a:

        Agreed, absolutely.

        Just to emphasize the point, as a teenager I had no quarrel with my parents. I was happy to play by their rules, and was given a lot of freedom as a result. And I acted responsibly in return.

        However, the very first thing I wanted to do at 18 was move out. I even enrolled at a university 200 miles away, when I could have gone to a campus of that university 10 miles away from my parents. In fact, I purposely picked a university with 40,000 students, making it unlikely I would ever see anyone I had known before. All so I could strike out completely on my own and shape a new life for myself, without anyone looking over my shoulder.

        Paul

        • Hey I did exactly the same thing Paul!

          In Australia we go to “college” (years 11 and 12) after highschool , and from there we choose a university. I waited till all my friends had decided where they were going to college and then I chose one that no one else was going to (and that also had a curriculum that fit my interests. I used it as an opportunity to go punk over the Christmas holiday break, and started my new school with a completely new me. It was one of the best things I could have done.

          As a note, I left home at the age of 16, at the same time. I wanted to move out and my mum helped me to “house sit” my grandparents house (they were away for a year) and thus I got to support myself and still be somewhere with a roof over my head and somewhere my parents were happy I was. Worked really well. I “grew up” really fast. Had to waitress 3 nights a week to make money for food, petrol and insurances. LOL.

      • Superb quotes, 4a, just excellent quotes. Thanks very much!

        Yes, we’ve really screwed the pooch here in the “West”. We left England and Europe to be “free” , only to become the bastion of enslavement. At one time, once “puberty” had hit, one got married, was out on their own, supporting themselves with honest (usually) work. Yeh, try that today and you’ll be thrown in jail and your kids taken and incarcerated in some government institution. What a way to stifle and kill initiative and creativity in thetans. Mass-produced conformity.

        • CB:

          One has to wonder who came up with 18 as the age of majority and how. It’s far past the completion of puberty for most kids. And you can see how they struggle against it.

          Paul

          • At 16 they can leave home (but parents are still responsible for their well-being until 18); at 19 or 21 they can drink; at 18 they can marry; at 16 they can drive and go to war. It’s a mixed up system and that can only mean psychiatric involvement. IMO. If they can go to war and be get killed, they should be able to get a job, raise a family, drink, get a mortgage, drive, etc.

            • CB:

              All agreed. This business of staggered ages of majority for various things is pretty silly.

              I’d like to see a class they could take in school (or online or whatever) about being an adult. It would teach a kid about checking accounts, mortgages, applicable laws, etc. It might serve as orientation to the world of an adult. Unfortunately, I think that most kids, while they might wish to be free of the “chains” of their parents and such, are poorly prepared for the real world they will face when they venture out on their own. They often have to learn how the adult world works by being smacked in the face by it. We might do them a favor by having such material available for them before they’re forced to deal with it. (Mandatory: Adult Orientation 101)

              Paul

              • For sure they don’t prepare kids for life – no financial planning, no marriage/parent/kids planning, no nothing that makes sense. This stuff could definitely be included in the curriculum…except…they’re dumbing down people and society so as to have malleable and controllable populace. Reminds me of many a SF movie (no, not Matrix).

                Same thing in college, they don’t teach professionals such as dentists, engineers, doctors, etc., the ins & outs of running a professional practice.

                Hey, it’s all known, just deliberately pushed aside and neglected.

                • CB:

                  Also amazingly enough, the medicos get one to two semesters of nutritional education in all those years of medical education. One might even be tempted to imagine there’s some agenda at work.

                  But no, that could never be…

                  Paul

    • There’s an excellent book on this area entitled “Get Out of My Life, but First Could You Drive Me & Cheryl to the Mall: A Parent’s Guide to the New Teenager” written by Anthony E. Wolf Ph.D., a clinical psychologist. When I read it, it was like he had sat and watched my step-daughter for a couple of years and wrote a report on his findings; it was as if he was talking about her! He has interviewed hundreds of teens and parents and what he describes is what Paul mentions above, and what mostly happens with raising teenagers. It doesn’t supplant LRH tech, but it adds to understanding what is going on.

      • CB:

        In defense of the psychs (though faint defense it is), they sometimes manage to properly observe things and document them. Their theories are all for the birds, which is why we have Scientology. But occasionally, their observations serve to confirm what we suspect about humans, but can’t know for sure without wide survey.

        Just to emphasize my original point, my (step) daughter absolutely hated me all through her post puberty years. I had a fair number of rules in place, thoughtfully devised to ensure her safety and comfort and ours (her parents). She broke every one and is very lucky to have escaped her teen years with her life intact, considering her risky, self-destructive and untoward behavior.

        Interestingly, after a stint in the military and having a family of three of her own children, she has turned into a sweet daughter, a faithful wife and very conscientious mother (her most important role). She looks upon her teen years as an aberration, as though it was someone else doing all that stuff. She sort of shakes her head at all the stupid crap she did and regrets victimizing us (and herself) as she did; she realizes we didn’t deserve it.

        Paul

  4. The OW Tech is valuable, but it is not the only Tech available. I have observed that it is sometimes overused as a way of handling upsets and bad behavior in the teenage years. What can be overlooked is the power of simple ARC and caring about what is going on in their universe.
    There is a lot going on during this period of life. For one thing, the raging hormones are newly impinging upon them through their bodies in the present LT and this can make it a very confusing time, especially when combined with all of the aberrated 2D stuff that is hitting them at the same time on TV, in movies, from their friends, etc. Add to that the fact that they are trying to figure how THEY are going to survive, what THEY want to do in life and how they are going it and they’ve got a lot on their plate to confront.
    Paralleling their minds, caring about exactly what is going on in their universes is very important. …..Of course when a parent does this it may restimulate what they experienced at that age with their own parents, so one should be prepared to be very honest…and humble. 🙂 And don’t ever be afraid to sincerely apologize with no strings when you screw up, because then they will be more inclined to do the same when they screw up.

    Above all, they need to know that you are their friend.

    End of Karl’s “advice column”. 🙂

    • “Dear Karl,

      My kids are beating me up. Should I ask them to stop, or show them that I understand by giving them a bigger stick?

      Signed,
      Black & Blue”

      LOL

      Seriously, good advice, Karl. The first thing – always – is to get into comm with them (the teen, the kid, the pc, the wife/husband, the person) and through good ol’ TWC, find out what’s going on. Then one will know what to do next, what piece of tech to apply.

      And don’t forget that a full set of CCHs and objective processing will work wonders as well. 🙂

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