By Lana M

There are many, many people who come into Scientology, read some books, get some auditing and then drift off and are never heard of again.

You could be lead to believe that these people are unhappy or dissatisfied with the results they got, and thus left. Certainly there have been campaigns at various points that the numbers of people that have been involved in Scientology over the years is not reflected in the numbers that are seen in present time (whether that is in orgs, or in the field, or where ever). The false datum that is pushed is that people do not continue with Scientology as they are unhappy with results or that the tech does not deliver results– but routinely that is not the case. They came into Scientology with a problem, or something they wanted handled. They handled it, and then went off to continue their life – often with a very broad smile on their face.

There is a classic story of a lady who I was introduced to who I was told had read a few Scn books and had had some Dianetic auditing on a major ruin/incident in her life. I was told she was not interested in Scientology and in fact was somewhat hostile to it, so I was surprised when she showed up at a gathering at my place and was cheerfully talking to others and seemed to be very at ease and comfortable.

I invited for her for a walk, and as we moved around the property I made sure she understood that I was a Scientologist and that we deliver both auditing and training, and if she was uncomfortable with that, it was OK, I was not going to try and audit her, or make her do something she was not wanting to do — and I wanted to be upfront and find out what her objections or upset with Scientology was. She completely surprised me and told me that the auditing she had had was wonderful and changed her life, and that she had read ALL the basic books and they make sense to her, and what she was trying to solve now was how to go exterior again (as she had gone outside her body a few years ago and was fascinated by what had occurred and wanted to learn more about it and how it is done).

This was a person who I had been lead to believe had received some auditing and had no desire for any more, and who was supposidly borderline anti-Scientology. Nope. Not at all.

I am convinced there are many, many people who have come into Scientology, read a few books or did some courses, received some auditing and handled what they were worried about, or anxious about. Then they headed back off into the world to continue life. That is a good indicator. That is a product well achieved, and the fact that they have not continued up The Bridge to the very top is really not the issue or a problem. Scientology technology helped them and they have then gone off that little bit more at cause, less restimulated and more able. They were brought up the Tone Scale and life improved for them.  And if they wanted to return, the door is open for them to do so.

That is what Scientology is actually all about.

I have run into many of these people. Some have been off-lines for more than 20 or 30+ years. They moved countries, or got a new job doing something very different, or they drifted off and had not come back into Scientology – but you talk to them about their auditing or gains and their faces light up and they talk about how good it was.  One man I spoke to had been on staff for many years but never really had any auditing or training. He routed off staff after some 10 years and now successfully works in a large marketing firm and does not plan to do any more Scientology. I asked him what he attributes his success at this new job to, and without hesitation he said it was the training and knowledge he gained as a staff member and as detailed in the Management Series, that has made him such a dynamo in his current role. He had only ever done the Purif, and I asked him how that went and he grinned and started telling me about the great gains he had, and how it changed his life. He has no plans to continue with Scientology at this time – he is happy and living life. He has lost interest. But to use him as a statistic that proves that Scientology is “bad” certainly aint right, as he is living proof that the tech does work, does improve lives and helps people become more able and more at Cause.

“We all want a “royal road” to Clear, but anybody who believes that full progress to Clear is a short and easy one is making a mistake which will cause him disappointment.

“What you should realize is that about half the way up from release to Clear the case is de-intensified to such an enormous extent that the person has to think a couple of times to remember that he is still a therapy patient.

‘He gets up so high that sometimes it requires somebody else’s attention on the subject in order to take him all the way through. The material no longer even interests him. The whole engram bank is deintensified, and you have to keep alert to the subject if you want to get the case all the way through.

‘The person feels good. He doesn’t get tired. He feels able to cope with things.”

LRH lecture called General discussion of Auditing, on 31 August 1950

23 thoughts on “People who lose interest in Scn

  1. So very true, Lana. It all comes down to need of change. If Scientology addressed whatever was bothering them at the time, they went out on a win. Life was good. Not everyone thinks, “wow, this is good, but I bet it could be even better if I go on.”

    Sadly, down the road if life has smacked them around again and things aren’t so good, it’s easy to focus on the problems and forget what had helped them before. All the more reason for getting the word out in the field that help, real help, is available. And it won’t cost your life’s savings.

  2. Two issues here. People like those described are a problem for Orgs, because a PC/student is not supposed to drop off that way. There is a line back to the reg, which is supposed to result in the next major service being sold and started. Notwithstanding the reference above, a non-resigning particle on this line would be considered a reg failure. It is up to the reg to bring the person back up to “demand for improvement” again if necessary on a different ruin in order to keep them on the Bridge. This is an Ideal Scene, you understand, but that is the way LRH saw it. As far as staff were concerned, like auditors, there was never any adequate excuse for a failure.

    Second, there is a missing perspective in these people. Now, I’m unique in a sense. I was staff. And for what it’s worth, I am also a last-lifer. So from my viewpoint, there’s a whole perspective missing here of, “This is the one hope of all Mankind in this universe and that’s important not just on the first but on the third dynamic and the fourth as well”. Personally, I can’t help but feel some obligation to be involved in forwarding Scientology, one way or another. This isn’t Psycho-Cybernetics or Getting Things Done or some other self-help fad. This is THE ANSWER, folks. It’s the key to this universe and every other one. If you’ve ever connected back to times when you could operate as an OT on your time track, you realize you’re way behind the 8 ball where you’re sitting now (unless you’re on your OT levels). And there simply isn’t any reason not to try to attain those abilities again. Having a bunch of case out of your way is neat and all, but having all those OT abilities again is not something I’d expect to lose sight of. So I think these people you’re talking about don’t really understand what they are dealing with.

    We’ve often made the point that lack of KSW is what doomed the Church. Regardless of what some future evaluation ultimately comes up with as the Why Scientology ultimately imploded, lack of KSW will serve in the meantime as an adequate Why. If everyone from here to there and back had been absolute sticklers for points 7-10 of KSW (and Safeguarding Technology), we wouldn’t be where we are today. Now considering these people above, do you think they would be up to the KSW task? Not on your best day. They were just passing through. I hate to use the “D” word, but in fact they were and are “dilettantes”. Again, notwithstanding the reference above, Ron would have wanted to ensure that these people understood what they were ultimately connected to. But as with Basic Courses students, you can’t expect them to behave the same way that Academy students would react. Basic Courses students are still struggling with the newness of all this and all there is to learn. KSW may be on their checksheets, but you can’t expect them to react the same way an Academy student should, with regard to KSW.

    Don’t get me wrong. When I use the “D” word on these people, it’s not without understanding their viewpoint. And it is not saying they are bad or evil or anything of the sort. There is a sort of similar phenomenon that happens a lot with OTs. They reach the top of the Bridge and think they’re done. They’re not. There’s a whole other side of the Bridge to deal with. But it just seems to completely escape their notice. And so it goes. I’m not trying to blame people or make them wrong. But I am describing things as they actually are.

    One last note. The lecture above was delivered in 1950. I don’t believe even Ron knew what he had his hands on in 1950. I believe it was 5, 10, 15 years later that Ron realized what Scientology really meant to the future of Mankind. And when Ron made the above admission that people sort of “keyed out” their immediate cases, he was being sincere and truthful. But it’s kind of like when LRH would say to us (on staff) that there was never a good excuse for a stat sag around the holidays. Elsewhere he would admit that, of course people want to visit their relatives and take some time off around the holidays. But his position was that this was no reason to go into agreement with a stat sag. It was up to us to ensure that the sag didn’t happen, regardless of what our public wanted. (I know, this will seem harsh to those who were not staff, and we on staff considered it harsh as well. By Christmas, we were exhausted anyway. But you had to look at why LRH took this kind of position: as soon as you opened the door to one kind of excuse, you more or less opened the door to them all.)

    To Lana: I’m not trying to contradict your point here. What you’re saying is absolutely correct. And I do understand that real people react as you’ve described. I’m simply pointing out where this phenomena, while perhaps understandable, is certainly not the Ideal Scene and why.

    And to those of you who wish to use what I’ve said above as another nail in the coffin of “Scientology Admin”, save your breath. “Stat pushes” were a universal ingredient for the failure of Admin everywhere it occurred. Everyone from the top down fixated on the stat, instead of working out how to get the subproducts and thus the product which would then result in the stat. The stat is secondary. It’s just a number. The important thing is the product. But few from continental level on down ever saw that. And it resulted in more grief in Orgs than you can imagine. And believe me, it was not LRH’s viewpoint.


    • This is an interesting comment Paul, I agree with your assessment of how a person progressing on Org lines is dealt with. But I also agree with Lanas article regarding people who have had wins and lost problems and regained abilities can drop off of lines and just get on with their lives and what is wrong with that? Nothing really, its a good thing, and something that should happen and not be invalidated, in my opinion.

      As you say, there is a time difference here between when Ron said people could drop off with their wins, the early 1950s, and when they are pushed to get up the Bridge, maybe, mid 60s on.

      I agree with what you say here ” I don’t believe even Ron knew what he had his hands on in 1950. ”

      From my point on the Bridge, I can understand why the push by Ron to get people up these levels. But I know there is more to do, the original OT levels, to start with, and definately not forgetting the Training side.

      From this position, I can understand why Ron put in the resign line, because in reality, when done per the Tech, a being just goes from win to win on up, and out, if one wants to, even if he doesn’t know it to begin with. Thats my reality with the advantage of a rear view mirror and very little dave tech.

      Again Paul, you have explained what I believe to be one of the 2 major fall downs and that is the statpush, without regard to the product. Totally agree with you on this one. I reckon the other one has been the overuse and abuse of ethics.

      • 4a:

        The re-sign line is another example of Ron’s “no-excuse” mentality. Orgs needed every PC and student to re-sign in order to survive, and you couldn’t allow a reg any excuses for lack of a re-sign. Any single excuse meant all excuses. As I said, public may find this harsh, and it was. But it was Ron’s viewpoint on this stuff. Any failure in that system was not an Admin failure, but a human one. And back in 1950, there was no organizational network as there was later. It took until the mid-60s that Ron got Orgs organized and covered by anything like “policy”.

        Again, let me point out that I don’t condemn those who drop out because they feel great now. I’ve known lots of people like that. And I still treat them the way I’d treat any other person or Scientologist. But the fact is, people like this do not recognize what they have hold of. They’ve solved their problems. I’ve seen a lot of people go through Div 6 like this– they’re good looking, successful in life, lots of money, hot 2D, connected to important people, etc. They go through Div 6 and all their problems are already solved. What do they need from us? You have a devil of a time finding a ruin on these people. They come into a Div 6 and never realize what they’ve just made contact with. They never do a service and go on their happy way. The people who go through, get their problems solved and drop out, are, in fact, dilettantes, exactly as LRH defined them. They wouldn’t defend Scientology against KSW violations; they’re done.

        Now, if you want my private opinion, once you’re made contact with Scientology (done a service, etc.) you never forget. Somewhere up the line you’ll be back in, possibly kicking yourself for all the time you lost getting dead and reborn, etc. And even if you don’t get back in for a long time, solving your problems at the time puts just that much more theta and order in on the world, something the world could sorely use. So in that sense, it’s a good thing. But it’s still not the Ideal Scene, and that’s really the only point I was making.


        • It’s like: you go to a clothing store and they find your ruin, i.e. you need trousers. They provide you with trousers, problem solved, many thanks, good bye. You expect customers to understand that they could also get better shoes, then shirts, jackets etc. with even better materials, fit, more sophisticated accessoires etc. And then — at Operating Sartorialist — they could learn how to design and sew their own apparel, at OS Class III they’d learn how to design their own collection (only to find out at OS VIII that it’s pointless anyway as they don’t want to be a sartorialist but a lumberjack). Since they don’t know or understand that on their own, the sales assistant has to upsell them on the next product.

          The sales assistants are supported by an organization like, say, the International Association of Sartorialists to drive home the idea that in your eternity you should dress well and that there’s more to it than just buying trousers.
          (Unfortunately said association then regs the hell out of you to fund (empty) Ideal Stores while not even delivering trousers anymore. You just get some shiny lapel pins in return. Some even join the Sartorialist Organization (Sew Org), where they stitch together all kinds of clothes in exchange for rice and beans. The major upside is that they learn how to produce their own uniforms.)

          Okay, I’m getting silly. Anyway. Admin Tech: PCs think and behave like customers, they’re treated like customers. Find their ruin, use hard sell techniques, send out mailings, expect to lose a certain percentage of customers (and try to find out why). That’s why Admin Tech works outside of Scn: the majority of your publics are customers (and only a minority are truth-seekers and self-improvers).

          • SA:

            I had to laugh at your analogy. It’s a great one. Not sure I’d agree that a minority of public are truth-seekers and self-improvers, though. I tend to believe that most people have been seeking the truth (and solutions) for a loooong time, without realizing it. But that’s neither here nor there. Still, great analogy.


    • I love this blog because of the conversations and views and passion that get expressed — and you never fail in this regard Paul.

      You are right — it is the only hope for Man, and KSW is KSW. My article was, I guess, trying to make a point that the nay-sayers who love to quote statistics about how many people have left and are no longer involved in Scientology, are somehow proof of the tech not working, or Scientology being a fraud, or something.

      But back to your point. I have just been restudying the book Science of Survival, which is also from very early on in the Scientology time track, but LRH makes it clear several times in the book that it is not that we have to “Clear” everyone, but more that we have to free up enough entheta to move people up scale to above 2.0 so that the planet stops on its road of self-destruction. Just look at ISIS for a classic example of 1.1 groups out of control. And in describing that LRH says how you can get a release in as little as 5 – 50 hours and dramatically change a persons life and make a better contributive person in society and across the dynamics.

      Yes, that is not permanent as the person can then sink back into the bank, be restimulated or overrun by enturbulation or a sudden shock/incident that pushes them back down the scale, but each little action to free up theta and destimulate works.

      We can audit people, we can educate people, we can put people into different environments that are not as restimulative, and we can also adjust the amount of MEST that people are handling (too much or too little) and each of these are valid therapies to help people regain their free theta and move up the Tone Scale.

      Scientology Orgs have a specific purpose and that is to make Clears and train auditors. All policy that exists in the OEC volumes was to make that possible, but that policy and those lines (such as the resign line and the registrar line, and the D of P line) are only as workable as they are achieving those products.

      When there is no active field, no army of field auditors and no missions and field groups that are dynamically and energetically working to apply basic Scientology to create those releases, then the function of the org gets harder and harder. Those that come to the org (having come from a field group or auditor) would have already learned basic Scientology, had gains, gone release and they WANT to be an auditor and/or they WANT to go Clear. KSW makes complete sense as you then make sure that that student really does learn how to be an auditor and really does know his/her stuff. You take that wandering doubt and you teach them and they come out the other side with real certainty (I hate using that word now as DM has tainted it).

      But without missions and field auditors and groups and ministers in the community and field, who are just moving people up scale and creating releases, educating, and so on — you don’t get people who even know there is something to be achieved, something different from the reality they live. Something other than a one-life. And Orgs, cannibalising those they have, get heavy handed (using KSW as the justification) and specialise in heavy ethics, so they are no longer islands of sanity and something else entirely.

      • LM:

        Can’t disagree with you on any point. The only comment I would make is that Science of Survival (SOS) is most valuable for its chart and its exposition of that chart. The theta-MEST theory was, if I’m not mistaken, introduced in that book. But Ron always maintained that theta-MEST was just a theory. He predicted a variety of things in that book, but it’s hard to know how much of that would actually hold up over time. Ron was unable to predict the incredible sag in our society that happened in the next decade. Whether Clearing a small portion of Earth would make a significant difference overall is something we probably won’t know in our current lifetimes. In fact, for all we know, it may be that the work we’ve already done has prevented the wholesale glassing of our planet.

        I’m inclined to believe that the OT levels would be more effective than Clearing in this respect, since the OT levels tend to produce effects in other people not seen lower on the Bridge.

        In any case, my point is that it’s hard to tell whether LRH would ultimately be proven right in predicting how much change would be produced incidentally by Clearing and releasing people. But it is unquestionably true that any headway made is better than none. Or as LRH might have put it, any case, once opened, is better than one never touched. And of course, anyone touched by Scientology, however briefly, is better off than someone who has never heard of it. Even if they wander off afterward never to be seen again.

        Again, my viewpoint was forged as a staff member of several Orgs, and a last-lifer, and is more extreme as a result. LRH’s viewpoint became more extreme over time as well. KSW and Safeguarding Technology were only two of the results.


  3. I made the mistake of turning to the Church of Scientology for more information about Dianetics. Four years later, I was declared a SP for blowing from the SO. I didn’t start up the Bridge and I didn’t have any wins that justified my 16 hour work days in the SO.

    I drifted away for several years and became a materialist/atheist, Then after some personal wins, I realized how some of my earlier Scientology training was a true observation of what I experienced. I returned to a full study of Scientology. Since that time, I’ve studied over a thousand lectures by LRH. Scientology is awesome.

    • Don’t allow me to overly simplify the pain many go through…

      Yeah, sometimes people in Scientology go through the feelings of needing to kill themselves. When I was at Flag Bureaux, it seemed we received more reports of New OT VIIs and VIIIs killing themselves than we heard of good wins. A lot of really overwhelming stuff can come up as a result of studying Scientology or receiving auditing. I have experienced it myself — yet I am not dead.

      If I am not dead, then you’re not dead! (And those who are dead can only wish for us the one thing they cannot do — to LIVE!)

      Yeah, these jerks at the top of the Bridge make it all look easy. It’s not. I get it. I’ve been in it, too. You’re not alone even though sometimes it looks hopeless. It is not hopeless because even the most failed of all can live and not be out the bottom as the suppressives have predicted.

      Maybe you just need someone to tell you that all isn’t hopeless. It’s not. It really isn’t. The most miserable thetan is the one who killed himself while looking down on the lifeless body and wonders where to go and what to do next. I know. I’ve done it! I’ve killed myself many, many, many times in past lives and it doesn’t solve the root of the problem. If I can impart that one message to you, then I have saved you from a fate worse than mine!

      If I can send one message to the members of Milestone Two, it is to be good to each other — because you are the crew you’ve been given. If you can’t trust or rely on each other, then you will become “only ones” drifting in a sea of only ones. My intentions for you are good.

      Happy New Year!

      — Jonathon

  4. I have found that when a person receives really good service and is just floating on air, they will want more service.
    That said, a wise reg will notice when someone has had a really big win and will, if no immediate interest is originated on doing another service at the moment, give them space to enjoy it.
    One might say,”Wow, looks like you’re going to be having a lot of fun! Go for it! And stay in touch. We’ll be here. We’ve got lots more goodies for you whenever you’re interested.”
    One can also ask them about their plans in life and actually stay in comm with them from time to time about that…. waiting until something is originated which matches up with an org service which they could use. One can invite them to informational events where no one tries to “sell” them anything.
    It is called ARC, Reach and Withdraw, The Expanded Non-existence formula, etc., etc., etc.

    In my opinion, for decades, COS management and staff has been in a complete bypass-usual-routines-stat-push tizzy every Thursday at 2 mainly because they have failed to take the basic long view actions on a standard daily operating basis and perfect them continually.

  5. Great post, Lana. For me it rings true because I have solved my issues which needed solving and have the skills to confront those which manifest as I make my way in life. From that viewpoint, Scientology really was a therapy for me. I cast aside that which was holding me back and am free now to live my life according to my own self-determinism. The slate was wiped and all that I have created and continue to create belongs entirely to me and I am responsible for all of it.

    Having said that, it is a constant reassurance to me that if something I cannot handle comes up I can seek further guidance from the treasure trove of technology LRH gifted to us all. Perhaps I might need to sit down for an auditing session or two, perhaps there is a specific run-down I might need, or maybe my troubles could be as-ised with just a long talk with someone well versed in the technology. But I know it is there if I need it. If this makes me a dilettante, so be it for I am an uptone, more able dilettante making a success of this life time thanks to everything I learned along my journey to Clear. Thank you LRH.

    Thank you also to this blog and its contributors. I don’t comment much, I don’t really have the intricate knowledge needed to add value to the discussions, but I read everything and learn lots. Happy New Year and best wishes to all concerned. There are so few internet sites like this it has become a Scientology oasis for me. These days, the only service I feel drawn to is the purif. When or if that inkling becomes an intention, it is here where I will ask for directions on where to go and who to see. In that regard, you have my trust.

    • Lovely to have you with us and to hear of your gains, Fiona! I am sure LRH would be smiling to read your comments here, as he intended for Scientology to be as you describe – to make the able more able, and to help people live happier and more fulfilling lives.
      I am really happy for you, and if that inkling, desire or intention to do more comes along, I will be sure to make sure you have access to someone who can provide service.
      Happy New Year! It is voices like your own that keep me pushing this blog along, rounding up success stories, nudging people for articles, etc. 🙂

  6. Yes there was time I felt no more need of services. That’s a different view than being an ARCx Pc !
    There is also a kind waeryness (sorry for my english dont know how it spells) Just tire of “scientologism”. it’s a kind of cultur that I can’t stand, all the hip hip. But I’m a european and I don’t like tha american way of artificial cheerfulness. But anyhow, when you really have big wins, what you want is to experience it.
    You are not like “need of more session to handle bla bla”. You are flying. That is the actual result of standard tech otherwise it’s a flunk. You have to feel more free, not more trapped!
    I experienced that, I had a review in Flag in 1996 before GAT. And that was good, i felt younger, my life changed, I did a new activity, I really had a new life. Handling mainly some out list.
    Then in 2000 in Flag again I had a very nasty handling in ethics. Later on my life collapsed, health, stats !
    So, I’m not by nature and never was a true believer. I am not made for being a cult member, but I was an auditor.
    And I can quote CS serie 95
    “there is no failed cases only failed auditors and Cses”
    And with an SP like Miscavige, all your chance are that at one point or another you are completly out list, it can put you in your grave.
    But the fact is that due to little Goebbels, we have an ARC broken planet, worst an out list univers. That’s the magnitude of the out tech. Absolute betrayal.
    Sadly enough many now are accusing Hubbard of the sins of the little monster.
    Of course Hubbard didn’t do everything right, and certainly not his departure, but gosh he let enough to help, but it’s quite difficult to my sense to reorganize delivery. I don’t even have a PC were I live

    • I hear you FG. Thank you for detailing your own experiences, views and considerations.

      Distance does not need to be a barrier. It is my hope that by linking auditors and PCs and C/Ses and Supervisors we can get hot spots of delivery occurring in Europe, England, Australia and the USA. We do have a number of auditors in France now. You are welcome to write me at admin@milestonetwo.org.

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