Posted by The Poet Ren Jan 1, 2016

Happy 2016 to all, with best wishes for a fantastic year ahead.

Poetry & Candlelight on Milestone returns and I hope this very first post for 2016 is an adventure for you. I might only say GET READY! because this January Issue is a bit of a rocket ride into the “culture” we live in and the experience we know as humanity itself. And that may be that the first understatement of the new year.

To begin I will bring this months subject matter into real-life perspective for you with The Creed of The Church of Scientology, from LRH.  Because few documents ever written speak to the heart of both culture and humanity like The Creed does. For without these basics no culture of any worth could exist on Earth whatsoever. It would be a harsh, intollerable mudball.

Furthermore, without the Creed there would be no need or reward for “truth,” as in “the exact time, place, form and event.”  No sustainable rewards at all, if “knowing” and/or learning the truth about anything did not help make each point of the Creed more and more a reality.

On the other hand, any truth that leads to an advancement of any point in the Creed could be considered valuable and worthy of discovery. That said, let’s review the Creed itself briefly. With that done I have a video link below for you to see. The video was made by a Persian woman and she has quite a story to tell. If her story is true it could have more impact on The Aims: a civilization without war, insanity, criminality, etc., than any other story you have heard, or learned about for a very, very, very long time.

If her story is not true, then no harm done. You listened; you evaluated; you observed TR O in; and life and living resumes, merrily on its way.

Again, having the perspective of the Creed, awareness of the simple definition of “truth” in advance of watching the video and an eye toward The Aims will help you see why I chose to make this the subject matter of this Jan Issue. Beyond that I might only say, “That all men have inalienable rights to think freely, to talk freely, to write freely their own opinions and to counter or utter or write upon the opinions of others.” LRH

 Let the 1st adventure of 2016 begin…


We of the Church believe:
That all men of whatever race, color or creed were created with equal rights;
That all men have inalienable rights to their own religious practices and their performance;
That all men have inalienable rights to their own lives;
That all men have inalienable rights to their sanity;
That all men have inalienable rights to their own defense;
That all men have inalienable rights to conceive, choose, assist or support their own organizations, churches and governments;
That all men have inalienable rights to think freely, to talk freely, to write freely their own opinions and to counter or utter or write upon the opinions of others;
That all men have inalienable rights to the creation of their own kind;
That the souls of men have the rights of men.





157 thoughts on “Poetry by Candle Light, Vol 1, 2016

  1. As a Scientologist (and as per The Creed of a Scientologist), I am someone who has the right to speak freely regarding what is real to me — and I cannot agree with this woman’s video, Ren.

    To me, her message and video is a misdirector and wrong target. It generates confusion/s and restimulates people. Her message is that there is a world-wide conspiracy and “matrix” that all people on Earth have been tricked into believing is real. That the Earth is flat and always has been. That everyone is a slave and has been tricked.

    Nope — I do not personally support this or wish to in any way endorse it or promote it, Ren. I am actually tempted to take the video down, but now it has gone out to all subscribers that will probably create confusion in itself.

    In my view it is actually very simple. There is a reality on this Earth, that is real because it is agreed upon. That is all. That is how we have the physical universe around us. It is detailed in the Scientology Axioms. The one thing that there is the most agreement on is the REACTIVE MIND – the bank. And that bank is illogical, non-sensical, destructive and bent on a non-survival path.

    Scientology gives a way to address and deal with the reactive mind, to help a person live a happier, more productive and fulfilling life. That is what this blog is about — not about theories that the Earth is flat (or that the CIA took over the Church, or that LRH was kidnapped and impersonated years before his death, or that large green lizards inhabit the Earth in human bodies, or that we can make the place better by auditing bowls of cereal). I am really tired of the conspiracy theories — majorly because they are a bunch of finger pointing to some undefined “cause” who is keeping everyone (including self) at effect. Nope. Just aint it. And it certainly is not the way for anyone to go Clear, OT or even Release.

    Sorry to be a downer — I am sure that ESMB and the other ex-Scn message boards will love this — “Hey MS2 now believes the Earth is flat”.

    • Lana:

      Likewise, video and content aside Happy New Year to you and yours.

      For the record I welcome your judgment call on keeping or removing this post. And I welcome it without a trace of invalidation or “rightness” issues on the matter. I fully acknowledge that you have the senior viewpoint on the purpose and design of what this blog should afford our many viewers. In fact, many of us commend and appreciate your efforts in that regard very much.

      So please do what you sense is best, with my wholehearted ARC.

      Meanwhile, this post (video) and your passionate first post reply to it raises what I believe to be a number of fascinating issues and perhaps even concerns for many Scientologist seeking greater spiritual freedom. We do live in a complex world with streams of viewpoints coming our way from far and wide.

      To me these issues and concerns are often addressed rather easily, because the great beauty of LRH Tech is that it speaks to the simplest, most essential aspect of all life. “To know how to know.”

      Today it may be knowing how to be happier. Tomorrow it could be knowing how to erase an emgram, or help a loved one. But the purpose is clear. “Knowing.”

      You may recall a series of posts some months ago on the subject of Quantum Mechanics that Jim started. A fascinating discussion followed – very interesting points of view on the scientific front. The purpose was simple enough – “knowing.”

      Wether it is the Science of things or the human heart we as a people, as a “culture” seek to KNOW what’s infront of us and what is behind doors #1, 2 and 3.

      Why does it rain eactly, I don’t know EXACTLY but you can bet there are those viewpints who do know exactly. And such instincts to learn discover and to KNOW in Man, in the culture we live in and create each day are not a bad, reactive, destructive or distracting aspect of the human condition. On the contrary, I would go so far as to say IT IS THE CULTURE WE WANT TO CREATE.

      Openess, honesty, forthrightness, clarity and integrity of purpose, these are the ideals that Science, the Humanities, Politics, etc., will, should, must, would aspire to in anything resembling The New Civilization, as envisioned by LRH.

      Is the Earth flat, round, square or made out of Snickers Bars? I do not know EXACTLY. Does it matter? Only to those who want to know for sure. And that subject is first and formost a matter of pure Science, not emotional, conspirtorial, reactive debate.

      I for one have no agenda either way. Though I might prefer the Snickers Bar model be proven out scientifically. My purpose for “daring” to bring such a subject into a Poetry & Candlelight post was to open up communications on the subject to anyone on Milestone wishing to address it in anyway. Because this subject is now going viral in the mainstream and it may come their attention sooner or later.

      Back in the 1950 LRH opened the door to discussions about the Mental Health field, and the hidden agendas he saw unfolding before him. In 1967 he open more doors about the 13 banking families that ruled the planet’s finances and governments. He nailed the Nazis and the IRS and the nature to SPs and the list goes on. “Conspiracy Theories” yes and NO. Distractions from clearing people, yes and NO. The desire to know the truth and get on with the game – YES!

      Again, I say please do remove this post if it is not appropriate for Milestone and do so with my 100% affinity for you and your vision and this group. Or leave it up. The round Earth will be round, flat be flat, or we will all get free Snickers Bars either way.

      As for the subject being restimulative to some, I agree completely. The only thing I know of personally that will handle that to anyone’s full satisfaction is to get into session and have fun doing it.



      • Thanks Ren, and I understand what you are saying.
        The Earth made with Snickers bars? Honey and cheese maybe, but not Snickers bars. I will leave the video and let it bounce around. I am sure when Jim watches it (he is interstate and will surely watch it late tonight), he will be impelled to comment, as will many others. LOL.

  2. I think you’re “having us on” as they say down your way, Lana.

    Ron, in the Creed, makes the point that we all have rights to our own opinions, and to counter or utter or write upon the opinions of others. And then we’re presented with a woman whose opinions are guaranteed to be 180 degrees off from ours. It’s a provocative way to present the subject. Not sure it has much to do with Art, but there you go.

    Of course, she’s a nutball. She is factually and demonstrably wrong in virtually everything she says. Our Axioms and such don’t disprove her. You could make a universe such as she presents. Science disproves her. I’m not a slave to Science by any means. But enough observation has been made and enough calculation that I’m willing to bet all I have that she’s wrong.

    Would I deny her the right to espouse her theories in any forum she could get accepted into? Nope. Would I invite her to one of my parties? No. She would insist on blathering on about her silly theories and thereby causing friction I wouldn’t want. Important point there. You have the right to your opinion, but I’m not obligated to give you a forum in which to express it. This point is missed in the modern world. Freedom of speech does not mean freedom to speak just anywhere you like any time you like. Would I allow her to insert her beliefs in textbooks for my children? No. She and those who agree with her comprise perhaps a quarter of a percent of the population. Her opinions are diametrically opposed to those I wish my children to have. Thus, the forum we (teachers, other parents and I) own is closed to her. Sorry; you’re stuck with your Youtube channel, lady.

    Conspiracy theories. They’ve been around since the beginning and always will. True or not, they are the life blood of the 1.1 crowd. Some are true, as LRH pointed out in RJ67, and some are not (“we never went to the moon”). You’re free to partake or not. And the rest of us are free to disagree or not.

    As for Art and its relation to this discussion, I suppose it parallels the art/not art and the good art/bad art debates. You’re free to say something is art or good art, and I’m free to disagree with you. Or the reverse, I’m free to pronounce something not art or bad art, and you’re free to disagree. You are also free to produce “art” or destroy art (assuming it belongs to you), that being a form of communication as well. But as pointed out, you may or may not have the right to display or perform (or destroy) that art in any given forum.

    So, all in all, I think this woman and her opinions are naive and misguided. But if she wants to go through life trying to get people to agree with her, let her. As long as I’m not forced to listen to her or agree, I couldn’t care less.


    • If it makes you feel any better Paul, I won’t invite her to lecture or write articles for MS2. 🙂

      You are right that there are people on virtually every corner who are promoting their views, opinions, realities and so on. Many of them are contradictory, and a large number are completely false. It is up to the individual to work out what is real for them, what is true. And I, like you, will not prevent people from communicating their views and will only step in if it occurring on my home turf and has become a distraction to what I (or the group) is trying to achieve or do. Otherwise freedom of speech all the way. They are free to say and communicate as they wish.

      In terms of science — I sincerely believe that we have a lot of knowledge, but a lot of it is theory that is based on hypothesis that has not actually been proven out. Our societies take “new research” and use this to prove or substantiate the initial (often old) theory, or to extrapolate new information based on that theory — but the theory (sometimes been around longer than most can remember) itself was wrong.

      As an example, the datum that if you eat fat you get fat was as wrong as you can get. It is not fatty foods that make a person fat — it is processed sugar and processed grains – both of which the body cannot process or use. But no, after half a century of promoting that low-fat or no-fat is the way to health, we have obesity and medical conditions like Diabetes Type 2 overtaking and swamping our medical systems. Only now is there a voice that is starting to get traction that oh, maybe that theory about eating fat making you fat is wrong! Duh!! Just try removing processed sugars and processed grains from your diet — and add in lots of meat, fish, vegetables, fruit and good oils and see what you get! I have for almost a year now and I am amazing at how good my body feels, the changes in hair, skin, nails, weight, energy levels, sleep patterns, and more. I have my reality on this now and nothing will shake it.

      In terms of Scientology — yep, there are plenty of opposing views on it as well in this world. And most of us run into this on a regular basis. But again, what is real for you is real for you, and as per the Creed, these persons are welcome to express their views on their own channels and amongst those who agree. Will I let them come onto Milestone Two’s blog and make others uncomfortable or upset? Nope. Will I let them come here and attack others who contribute? No. Will I attack them publicly, smear their name or be critical about them to others – no I will not. I just move on with my life and activities and they can do the same with theirs. What they do does not influence me as I have an unshakeable certainty and understanding about the reality and truth of Scientology – and if they don’t see it or have that reality, then so be it. ESMB, Why We Protest, Mike Rinder’s blog and followers, certain Facebook channels, and a number of “indi” back channels are welcome to say what they want and it has no impact on me whatsoever, as they are not my opinion leaders and I am not trying to gain their agreement and reality. They are free to express their views on their own turf.

      My mission is not to convert every person into a Scientologist or to force my reality onto others. It is to create a safe place, outside of the Church of Scientology, where Scientologists can be and communicate about Scientology, living life using the technology of L.Ron Hubbard.

      A theta space, uptone and where friends meet, bounce ideas, views and successes around. Where a person can tune in, from time to time, and feel better for it.

      At least that is the aspiration. LOL

      Happy New Year, dear friend. I wish you and Nancy the best for 2016!


      • LM:

        Agreed. Most particularly on science. Medical science has completely blown any credibility they ever had with me several times over, and its practitioners have proven to me that they are not a fraction as knowledgeable as they’d like to think. Physics is fully half completely wrong, starting with Einstein. In fact, you could just about throw away anything from Einstein on, and be none the poorer. This was the guy who first said, “You can’t go faster than light”. Okay Einy, I think you just proved my point.

        As for MS2, it’s kinda like what I imagine a nice neighborhood pub (in the English tradition) to be. Except the drinks are all virtual.

        And of course, regarding the new year, all our best from here in sunny central Florida to you there in the greater metropolitan Gundaroo area. I’m sure between you and Jim, it will a tremendously productive and rewarding year. Good on ya, Mate.


        • Yes, this virtual drinks business should be replaced some time with face to face, glasses in hand, and a good yarn.

          Metropolitan Gundaroo made me laugh — it is a very small village with a population of about 800. About as UN-metropolitan as you can get.

          I will take you good wishes from sunny Florida however , even from my tiny neck of the woods. LOL.


    • Scat…

      You make a host of excellent points.
      The one most notable to me is our right to exclude another’s point of view if and when it does not meet with our agreement, expectations, logic, interest, etc. I could not agree more.

      Another option LRH introduced us to is that of integrity, tempered with the ability to admire the other Being and his/her creation, opinion – view point.

      How often has LRH been less than admired, scorned as a “nutball” and excluded from the slightest consideration of the observations he communicated publicaly. One time too often to be sure.

      Not to compare this woman or any other to Source. But rather to say, “How quickly Man trades his ability to look for the opinion of a proclaimed “expert” in Science, Religion, the Arts & Letters and the cashier at the grocery store. Thus, a culture of disability is created.

      This does not an OT make. Nor will it ever surfice to make the new civilization a reality.

      I chose one of the most extreme viewpoints I could find (the woman in the video) to create a kind of odd interactive, internet blog art piece of sorts. I framed it, put it up on the wall and let fly into the teeth of passersby.

      You were wise to ask, is it art or is it not. And I’ll be the first to say I have no idea, really. Except that the question it sought to forward has been posed.

      Do we believe everything we are told or do we put on our boots and go take a look, TR O in, Scientologist’s Hat on? Because, if I’m not mistaken that is exactly what Source did. And he discovered that all was not as told in Paradise. Round was flat, up was down and we all needed to LOOK not THINK.



      • Ren:

        Good point about who we listen to. This woman clearly has simply traded one set of authorities for another. You could probably throw everything in physics away from 1905 on and you’d never notice it. But I’d be loathe to ignore Galileo, Kepler and Copernicus as she has. And in fact, many much much older civilizations here on Earth were fully aware the Earth was a spinning ball (one of many) in the heavens. I think the flat Earth idea was one only taken up by later, more primitive societies (like the Catholics).

        I never really raised the question of whether your post was art, only what it had to do with the subject. But I will say that your presentation of the post was much as an artist might present it– as a juxtaposition of opposites, meant to provoke thought and conversation.


        • Scat…

          A thoughtful observation as regards the 1905 era. As for any artistry in the presentation I admit I had to bite my lip and dare myself to run with this one. But it’s amazing what putting a little tinfoil on your head will do for your courage. 🙂 Thanks


    • Paul;

      “Conspiracy theories. They’ve been around since the beginning and always will. True or not, they are the life blood of the 1.1 crowd.”

      In what way are “they the life blood of the 1.1 crowd”?

      Please cite an exact reference by Ron that supports this assertion.

      • RV:

        At first, I couldn’t figure out why you’ve reacted this way. And then I realized why.

        Note that I did not say everyone who follows or forwards a conspiracy theory is 1.1. We all of us to one degree or another subscribe to one or more conspiracy theories. Nor did I intend to imply that any one person was or wasn’t 1.1.

        I’m not going to engage you on this. And I’m not going to spend hours of time trying to find a bunch of references and quote them to you. I’ll refer you to the Chart of Human Evaluation, and in particular the column on “Speech Talks Speech Listens”. You’re smart enough to figure it out.

        By the way, it’s pretty silly to say or imply that if Ron didn’t assert something as true, that it isn’t. In fact, I suspect that’s the last thing Ron would have wanted. Moreover, Ron made it clear you were free to agree or disagree with anything he asserted when he said, “If it’s true for you, it’s true”.

        As they say in one of my favorite movies (Demolition Man), “Enhance your calm”.


        • Oh please Paul.

          You said:

          “Conspiracy theories. They’ve been around since the beginning and always will. True or not, they are the life blood of the 1.1 crowd.”

          BTW I am very familiar with the Hubbard Chart of Human Evaluation as I use it in my practice all the time.

          Ron says under “Speech Talks/ Speech Listens” :

          “Talks apparent theta but intent vicious”/ “Listens little: mostly to cabal, gossip, lies.”

          No where does he say that research or discussion of possible cabals is a 1.1 trait.

          Also you are creating some kind of straw man by saying I said “Ron didn’t assert something as true, that it isn’t.” which I didn’t.

          My objection to your all encompassing statement that Conspiracy Theories being the life blood of 1.1s is not based on any technical fact that I am aware of from my level of training in the subject.

          Also yes Ron did say in the Ability Article on Personal Integrity that if it isn’t true for you then it isn’t to paraphrase which your statement isn’t from my point of view.

          So I am merely disagreeing with you.

          By the way according to the Creed of the Church I have every right to counter any opinion of yours.

          Also I’d appreciate it if you’d stop setting up a straw man that you say I said then patronizing me for allegedly saying it.

          While doing that “Enhance your calm”.

          • Now, now, settle down, Robin. You did ask Paul to cite an exact LRH reference to his opinion (yes, it’s just an opinion, as many of us have) that conspiracy theories are the life blood of the 1.1 crowd. I’m sure something might be found in LRH writings or lectures, but perhaps it is covered elsewhere by someone else, too. I believe Ron mentioned that he didn’t espouse on every subject. Anyway, just accept you guys have differing views and opinions on the subject. Possibly. 😉

  3. Two Words. …..”say what???”

    After spending about 10 minutes waiting for this very charming lady to arrive at her conclusion, I could see that it was going to be a very long wait, so I had to fast forward. Searching around near the end of the video I only found only more of the same, i.e., that there is a conspiracy involving NASA and others to convince the people of the world that the earth is round when in fact it is actually flat and to control our thoughts. Um…OK.
    Ren, I do not deny this person or anyone any of he rights outlined in the Creed of Scientology, including her right to think, speak, and write freely.
    However, communication is a four-way street. There is flow 1 (outflow), flow 2 (inflow), flow 3 (others to others), and flow 4 (self to self).
    And there is also something called the Code of Honor which suggests that one should only give or receive communication if one honestly wants it.

    And Ren, I must confess that I am not sure that I understand your motivation for posting this video in conjunction with the Creed. I don’t get what the author’s statements have to do with the principles expressed therein. Was it to “test” to see whether Lana was “really” applying the Creed ? If so, you could you have the same point by posting excerpts from Mein Kamf.

    No one is obligated to listen to or read anything that anyone says or writes, even though they have the right to say or write as they wish. I would advise re-reading the Creed with that in mind.

    Lana was under no obligation to post this video, and I for one wish that she had not done so because it is a non-sequitur to the Creed, itself. It is her hat to apply the Code of Honor on this blog. That said, I also understand why she did not take it down once it had already sneaked by the editor.

    The end result of posting this video has been to inject controversy into the very beautiful and universal principles expressed in LRH’s Creed.

    • Oh yeah, and by the way, here is the truly important part of today’s post. There is lots to communicate about here!
      As a starter, I think that point #1 is one that all cultures need to embrace and be vigilant about. As Scientologists we need to discourage others from excluding others as full members the human race.

      We of the Church believe:
      That all men of whatever race, color or creed were created with equal rights;
      That all men have inalienable rights to their own religious practices and their performance;
      That all men have inalienable rights to their own lives;
      That all men have inalienable rights to their sanity;
      That all men have inalienable rights to their own defense;
      That all men have inalienable rights to conceive, choose, assist or support their own organizations, churches and governments;
      That all men have inalienable rights to think freely, to talk freely, to write freely their own opinions and to counter or utter or write upon the opinions of others;
      That all men have inalienable rights to the creation of their own kind;
      That the souls of men have the rights of men.

    • Espiritu:

      Thanks for the time and consideration you took to comment on this month’s post. Your opinion is appreciated.

      In regards to your question about my motivation for linking The Creed to this woman’s subject matter (video) I can only answer by saying, “For the same reason an artist chooses to use red and not grey, or add a blue sky and not a string of clouds.

      In a deeper sense perhaps it points to the fact that to create a better world, to introduce LRH Tech into a culture, nation, society one is often met with challenging points of view. How we deal with and address those Beings, those viewpoints, will determine if we LIVE the principles we propose. Or if we recite them off as mere “beautiful and universal principles expressed” by LRH.

      We are good Beings, we can agree in theory that, “All men (and women) have inalienable rights to think freely, to talk freely, to write freely their own opinions and to counter or utter or write upon the opinions of others.”

      The greater issue is can you, can I answer a call to communicate, or reply or acknowledge another member of the Human Family who looks you dead in the eye and tells you she has evidence that the Earth is flat.

      Can we do so with dignity an grace and with superior communication skills, the ability to grant beingness, be there comfortably throughout and win the hearts and the minds of those infront of us? Can we Clear a planet doing otherwise?

      I will reread the Creed as you suggested I do. I will adhere to Lana’s better judgement and guidance as to what posts should stay and which one’s must go on this blog.

      I might only suggest that you take a moment to consider the post in the Spirit of Play and acknowledge the intrinctual nature of Man to know truth and answer the question.

      Is the world flat?



      • Ren, I do not have any difficulty communicating with people who see the world differently than I do with ARC, emphasizing those things upon which we do agree. I can even (almost always) be in communication comfortably and with grace with someone who most people might consider to be bat-shit-crazy.

        What I am trying to communicate to you is that Creed is a Creed…a system of principles. It is an echelon above any application of those principles and is meant to be the source of and a guide for all of its applications. I agree that it is a tool meant to be applied.
        With you, I observe that the world is sometimes a harsh place to be. But then again most of the world has not even had their grades!
        Among other uses, LRH’s Creed in it’s pure form can be a tool for people to rise to greater heights until that happens!

        As to your invitation to consider post in the spirit of play,
        when you said “intrinctual”, were you coining a word or did you mean “intrinsic” or “instinctual”?
        In any event, here goes:

        In The Spirit Of Play

        In the spirit of play
        I can say
        Of course the Earth is flat.
        Everyone knows that!
        Everyone can observe
        That there is no curve.
        So, there is no need for the repercussions
        Of any further silly discussions.

        Unless they can get up into orbit,
        But they’d need enough $ to pay for it.

        • E…

          Again with thanks. I find that any time we comment back and forth, regardless of any disdance between our realities you are always a delight. Challenging and delightful. So I do observe your high ARC and your ability to make it so.

          I won’t say I agree with your thought that I find my world a harsh place to be. I am dearly blessed with having had some of the brightest and best auditors in the world and find and see and create a world full of joy, creativity, hopefulness and purpose. But what you might be perceiving is that I do long for others to have the level of spiritual freedom LRH gifted to me. And so I can sense, feel, duplicate and even echo the sadness I see in the world at times. It’s aburden we all bear at times, I suspect.

          Yes, instinctual was the word, oooooooooooops and thanks.

          And now that you have “confirmed” the world is indeed flat after all, I must express my disagreement, in fact. After much consideration and a few experiments I am now prepared to state publicaly that the Earth is Square. For if it was not, surely humanity WOULD BE WAY MORE COOL. And we would end all wars and meet up in Jazz cafes for late-night beverages…


    • E:

      I can’t speak for Ren, but I think the point here was to assert our Creed, and then provide an extreme example where we might be tested in our patience for alternative opinions. And thus provoke us to truly consider the points of that creed. I think Lana caught this right away, and having an active sense of humor and play, she responded with her seeming (but not sincerely felt) objections.

      To provide a real example of what I mentioned earlier about venues, I remember a party I attended some years ago; all Scientologists but one. And as usual, the party sort of split up into little cliques, depending on where we were. At some point, our non-Scientologist began to offer some alternatives to some of our most tightly held convictions. What could one do? Mostly sit and politely listen to her objections. I wouldn’t have invited her to this party for exactly this reason. I don’t mind her believing whatever she likes. I just don’t want to hear about it.


      • Paul:

        Thanks for the fresh air. I was hoping someone would catch that contrast between having a Creed and “using” it. I was starting to think I might never be invited to anyone’s party ever again. Heheheheheh


  4. Ren;

    If your intention was to see if some of us were willing to “experience anything” by showing this video.

    I’d say you’ve certainly succeeded.

    Myself I lasted for maybe 5 minutes before moving on which is actually more time then I allow for “no planers”, “moon hoaxers”, “holocaust deniers” and of course the vast “Zionist KoRnSPiRaCY”.


    All I can say is that the woman is totally entitled to believe what she wants to believe.

    ‘Nuff said 🙂

  5. Umm, well, er, yes let me think about this for a moment. OK, that’s a moment.

    I think this proves that if a person eats their own toenails then it will not rain, if they say the words. What are the words?

    I have no words for this.

    On the other side of the coin, beefar, is signed by thusly ensconcing with the turtle that is of the long neck, speaking with tongue of meat and cheeto.

    This is why I/wee don’t wear ribbons toooo tight. Wherewithal, it’s cold outside. Even then, I don’t know maybe it was shoe on hairphone by APple.

    Yes. Umm, no.

    Much Love.

    • Where we may be momentarily deprived of your heightened powers of observation on this and other scienticic matters and your usual intelect and willingness to enlighten on such lofty subjects, we are dearly enriched and appreciative of your delightful spirit of play.

      God bless the insoucient soul.

      With love and the best for the New Year, Bud.

      • To you…:-)

        I’ve had my head down, hard on study, but I’m here and a big smile for you for getting my comment. My contribution to the art of Poetry by Candle-‘light’hearted.

  6. Abdul Aziz bin Abdullah bin Baz (Arabic: عبد العزيز بن عبد الله بن باز‎) (November 21, 1910 – May 13, 1999), was a Saudi Arabian Islamic scholar and a leading proponent of the Salafi form of Islam.

    Author Robert Lacey quotes a fatwa by bin Baz urging caution towards claims that the Americans had landed on the moon. “We must make careful checks whenever the kuffar [unbeleivers] or faseqoon [immoral folk] tell us something: we cannot believe or disbelieve them until we get sufficient proof on which the Muslims can depend.”[29] Lacey states that “after extensive research” of bin Baz’s fatawa, he (Lacey) had only been able to find this one fatwa on the subject, and no statement in it that the earth was flat.[29] Lacey does however say that according to his source, Bin Baz gave an interview after publishing the article
    “in which he mused on how we operate day to day on the basis that the ground beneath us is flat … and it led him to the belief that he was not afraid to voice and for which he became notorious.”[29]
    Though satirized for his belief,
    “the sheikh was unrepentant. If Muslims chose to believe the world was round, that was their business, he said, and he would not quarrel with them religiously. But he was inclined to trust what he felt beneath his feet rather than the statements of scientists he did not know.”[29] Wikipedia

    • Jim
      Very interesting and an intriguing input on the post.

      It prompted me to notice how vocal most religions have been and how much they have sought to swing Man’s view of our home planet to one side (flat) or the other. (globe)

      Hmmmmmmm – nothing suspicious there.

      For my money The Factors and The Axioms are the only true contributions to offer any kind of workable stable datums to Man on such lofty subjects since the Vedas, perhaps. And by far served to bring order to even these. (The Vedas)

      But m current interests are “cultural.” And any culture that quick condemns any spiritual Being’s desire to KNOW is a doomed culture. Art – Science and the Humanities included.

      Thus, if ever a New Civilization is to be, it will be brought about by those who offer each individual HOPE that it is possible to know.

      A man is troubled and vocal, he wants to know why his daughter is suffering. A woman (a spiritual Being) is troubled, she wants to know if the planet she calls home is flat, round or square. And that the facts are being honestly represented by Science, Religion and the powerful organizations of the State.

      Those without any Tech condemn, ridicule, torment, attack, defame and laugh heartily into OBLIVIAN. LRH suffered his fair share of that reality.

      So what does the Scientologist do in the year 2016 that is worthy of the word Thetan.

      This post was never about flat or round. It was about FREEDOM or the less desirable alternative. And in that light I say: Let’s all make 2016 THE BEST NEW CIVILIZATION BUILDING YEAR EVER.

      And let’s do it with love and understanding that our Fellow Man wants to KNOW things. They communicate about it. They plead for help and answers. They cry out in ignorance. And some with great wisdom too.

      But now I am preaching and that is not the artist’s job. 🙂


      • I met Vanna Bonta some years back and she, in that life she recently left, was as wonderful an artist as I’ve ever had the joy to know.

        She was involved with all sorts of people, including having her poetry on board the “time capsule” sent out as a comm to other cultures, “out there”.

        The earth isn’t flat. Buzz landed on the moon, gravity is a consideration that manifests in the affinity of particles as a workable theory and the planet we live on at this time is moving along with the rest of the MEST.

        That much is apparent when as a Static one views this vast creation.

        Beings on this particular blue planet are more or less imaginative when it comes to what the heck goes on.

        Snarlendorff kim powsee, minf to the lady in this piece. I hope her shopping cart doesn’t role off the edge. I HATE when that happens, for them.

        • Jim: “I met Vanna Bonta some years back and she, in that life she recently left….”

          Jim, does this mean Vanna recently dropped her body? Or are you alluding to some Scientology or artistic “life”?

            • Ah, shoot! I’m sorry to hear it. We had corresponded over the course of a year a while back; I was giving her some ideas (advice) re the tech and listening to her story and we became friends and stayed in touch. She was a wonderful lady. Sorry to hear she’s moved on.

              Funny, I was thinking of this earlier today, about moving on (not related to Vanna), leaving one life and starting another – realized more it’s the end of one inning and the start of another, different players and maybe even a new game. But it reminded me to play the game in the moment you are playing it, and to enjoy it and one’s teammates as you may have different ones next time. Lots to be said for living in the now/moment. I think it ties right in with the Actual Cycle of Action (FOT). Create-create-create.

              Thanks for the info.

  7. hi everyone, I don’t quiet see the relation between this video and the creed I must say. For me if one wants to understand something or do researchings on something or see if something is true, if the Earth is flat, first thing to do is to apply Standard Study Technology by LRH and go for it. Like getting the concept of gravity or things like that and have a look on how that works. Thourough Study Tech by the book. For me Scientology has more a scientific approach which uses Study Tech. Know how to know. The other thing is that we don’t need a special section for art on Milestone like a section once per month, or once a week or so. Art is all over in Milestone. It’s within the great writings of the comments, in the articles, in the way LRH writes. Some comments in this blog are real pieces of art. Some opinions talk about how they perceive art, personal perception of art. It pops up here and there in this blog. It’s all over anyway. It’s esthetics. I remember Lana once talked about her illustrations or drawings she used to do. She talked about a tale from what I remember. Other people share in this blog their links about songs they like. It’s personal artistical viewpoints that pop up here and there without getting too serious about the subject. It’s such an esthetic blog that is pervaded by people who don’t need an art section because it’s there anyway all the time.

    • Mary: I could not agree more enthusiastically about Study Tech. That alone would answer many of Man’s big questions. Great comment.

      I am less enthusiastic about your view on where art is needed, wanted. Following that logic I would only ask when we should start burning dow the local art museums, turning our concert theaters into LRH Bookstores and removing all musical instruments from Public Schools. Since we have so much art already anyway.

      Or how about we just flourish and prosper along all the dynamics, the 7th included – enthusiastically.


  8. Happy New year to All 🙂

    Wow! What an interesting smorgasbord of responses/reactions!@ enough to trigger some real emotion there, for sure!! 🙂

    As a born artist myself, I find it particularly easy to resonate with Ren, together with his responses to somewhat outraged comments.

    It really is important, to allow others to have their point of view, as long as this does NOT harm another. (More on this, to follow)

    Coming from a work environment, (I manage and have my workshop in a large storage complex facility) which is unfortunately located in a precinct which has been invaded by gangsters and criminals, one has to crank up one’s confront of evil, and confront, itself.

    As this post of mine, is going to touch on the ULTIMATE confront of evil, I suggest that those who cannot do so, leave this article now.

    If you are NOT prepared to have your sensibilities outraged, again, do not read on.

    I refer to the recent shocking acts of horror, perpetrated by the terror groups, Bokoram, ISIS and ISIL. And central to this, how such atrocities, are being used to drive a massive exodus of populations from their native countries, (Syria, etc.)

    My point being made here, is that it is the deliberate use of MIND CONTROL techniques, which are instrumental in forcing a barbaric, inhuman, view into a section of Islamic fundamentalists, who are turned into unfeeling cold blooded killers.

    Not fascinated by blood and gore horror movies of Hollywood, I was reluctant to watch the public beheading of Journalist Alex Foley. While having given that a miss, I yet was outraged by a recent report of 21 Christians, who were so slaughtered , in the name of religion. I watched the video.. While I reckon I have seen a lot of real life barbarism and blood baths, the indescribable rage I experienced, watching this slaughter, left my mind in turmoil, for several hours, as I tried to process what I had just witnessed.

    I did successfully process this horrific video. And want to share some important realizations I had while doing so.

    Lana made an important observation, recently, regarding the attainment of happiness. (All from LRH references)

    1), Be able to experience ANYTHING.

    2) Cause only those things which others may experience easily.

    These above two statements, being self explanatory.

    The subject of MIND CONTROL, imho, deserves thorough investigation and CONFRONT, of all it’s elements, if one is to avoid becoming a hapless victim of its insidious use and perpetration.

    The use of FEAR, and subjugation of the concerned individual’s free will, are just two elements which need to be fully confronted and understood, to have a chance in combating this evil.

    As Scientologists, facing harsh realities of a rapidly changing world order, I reckon we certainly have a wonderful array of practical tools (TR-s assists,) technical processes (destimulative, creative, confront, handling-the-dangerous-environment, objectives, etc, etc,) to assist those in the unlikelihood of such a crisis.

    Just felt I needed to weigh in on a subject (MIND CONTROL), which needs to be addressed in an open forum. (The miscavige example, along with the current terrorist scourge, do need to be confronted, and people may thus be comforted by assurance of certain applied knowledge openly communicated to them.


    • Good point RIB.

      As Ron said back in ’51 in Science of Survival:

      There is another form of hypnotism which falls between the surgical operation and straight hypnotism without physical pain. This form of hypnotism has been a carefully guarded secret of certain military and intelligence organizations. It is a vicious war weapon and may be of considerable more use in conquering a society than the atom bomb. This is no exaggeration. The extensiveness of the use of this form of hypnotism in espionage work is so wide today that it is long past the time when people should have become alarmed about it….

      Regarding ISIS. Like the Mujahideen or Al-Qaeda is yet another creation of the CIA:


      Terror and terrorism is used to manipulate the public into giving up their freedoms and accepting total controlled police state with the above groups acting as Agent Provocateurs.

      In other words *mind control* on a national and international scale.

      • Good stuff RM. Yep, WE needn’t kid ourselves for a moment. There is no doubt whatsoever, that there are those that watch us..

        Making waves against the real powermongers, could land one under even closer scrutiny. The trick is to keep ‘eternally vigillant’ , without becoming enmeshed in so doing.

        Survival doesn’t go too well, if you shine a friggn’ spotlight on yourself, while throwing mud pies at a psycho, does it? 😀

        • I agree RIB.

          Being eternally vigilant includes being aware of what is happening and as you say having the ability to confront evil.

          Yet I believe remaining insouciant.

          Personally I think this is what Ron was doing when he wrote the Mission Earth series 🙂

          One thing anyone can say about this woman is that she is seeking to reject some commonly held beliefs or what they call conventional “wisdom”.

          I mean who’s to say that what she says doesn’t apply two some other point on the time track?

          Fact is what she says was pretty much accepted as “conventional wisdom” back in the Dark Ages.

          Before the days of global navigation,the telescope and space exploration.

          If both you and I were listening to her in a Pub near Shepard’s Bush in say 1491 there’d be no disagreement at all depending on the amount of ale both of us consumed 🙂

          • Well now you’re talking, RV. Good doses of insouciance, thrown into the mix, doth a lighter living make. 😀 That is my usual running mantra, or words to that effect.

            Jeez, man! If anything, I’ve learned that this whole circus show we’re attending, could go BLAM, at any ol’ time! So why not enjoy the performance/s to the max, hey hombre? 😀

            — Including that of the intriguing, completely sold, Persian doll, inviting us into her ‘flat’ world. 🙂 Hey, c’mon RV! You know we’ve heard weirder realities AND bought ’em, ( unquestioningly! 😉
            What is even MORE amazing, is that we still hold onto ’em! 😀

            And some think SHE’s wacko?? LOL!

            • Ya mean like the one about some fat dude in red climbing down a small chimney hole to deliver gifts to all us kids with 12 flying reindeer attached to a sled 🙂

              They even enforce that myth over here by NORAD saying their tracking him on RADAR.

              I’m surprise they haven’t taken him out with a SAM by mistake yet.

              Then saying “Sorry kids. We suspected Santa of being a terrorist.”

    • Racing…

      “The subject of MIND CONTROL, imho, deserves thorough investigation and CONFRONT, of all it’s elements, if one is to avoid becoming a hapless victim of its insidious use and perpetration.”

      No wiser words have been spoken.

      Building a New Civilization begins with TR O

      If the PC needs or wants to know if the world is flat, or why LRH talks about psychiatric prison camps, or how two soup cans can ease one’s stomach ulcers, or who killed John Lennon.

      Then who among us goes without questions that would make a virgin nun blush?

      Thanks for contributing to this month’s post. I hope we see more of you here.

      With best wishes for great success in your arts 2016


      • Thanks so much for your generous response, Ren. 😀 And indeed, posting here at the MS2 blog is a privilege, we all share. I have always had enormous respect for Lana and her dedication to the cause, plus the unstinting help she offers to all of goodwill, is exemplary. Any you, too dear buddy! Take a bow for some of the finest use of ARC I have ever seen in print. You not only really “duplicate”, but manage to use language, with the deft touch of the consummate artist you are! 🙂 Splendid to be sharing ‘life’ with you. Thank you! 😀

  9. That’s right Mary, Scientology has a more scientific approach.

    Most people’s perception of life is derived entirely from their senses; they trust what the body tells them and call that true.

    For most people, there is only something, never nothing. LRH’s answer to this was pure genius: re-familiarise them with that something. But he went much further than that, he isolated the reason people wouldn’t look at that something – the bank.

    Shedding the bank is infinitely more preferable to drifting in a sea of worldly distraction. One person says the world is flat, but two say it isn’t – so we’ll go with the majority view?

    5 seconds into the video above, and you can see the woman is not well; it wouldn’t matter what she was saying.

    Fact and truth are not interchangeable terms: how would we know a fact was true or not? Facts are always conditional, whereas truth cannot be. Facts supported by more facts is what the physical universe is composed of: something out of nothing.

    As we know, facts come and go;
    One day it’s this way,
    and tomorrow, it isn’t so.

    • Now it all starting to make sense! Thank you Mabu!

      A turtle! It all comes down to a turtle! LOL

      Two days ago I was walking the dogs on our farm and stopped at one of our many dams.

      After a few minutes I felt like I was being watched. There was a ripple and then silence, and then a slight movement, and a small head was watching me. It was a long-necked turtle – quite a good size one (a shell of almost 30cm across). I watched this turtle watching me, and then noticed there were 3 others, also in the water, in different locations around the dam — each with only a head sticking out, and then disappearing from view and then popping up quietly a little distance away, still watching.

      Having enjoyed the turtles for quite some time, on my dog walk yesterday I returned to the same dam to see if I could see any more, but a quick glance and there were none visible. I was distracted by our cattle that were in the next door paddock and they were hollering and making a bunch of noise, so I moved on past the dam to investigate. I had moved about 100 metres away and one of my dogs (labrador x golden retriever) was still dilly-dallying in the water as it was a hot day, and then suddenly there was a very loud and deep barking.

      Dogs have many different barks, and I am well used to the high pitched playful bark when she has found an echidna, or the mixed excited bark when she encounters a snake. But this bark was neither of these two — it was a a very deep and loud bark, one I have only heard her use a handful of times, when she encounters something completely unknown and she is protecting me and warning it to back off. We had a hot air balloon cross our property a few years ago and this was the same bark she had sounded at that time.

      So with this very loud and very deep bark sounding, I ran back to the dam, wondering what on earth she had found.

      She was in the water and was swimming around in circles, looking down into the water, barking deeply. She had ENCOUNTERED a turtle! And it had completely spooked her so she was going to do her damn best to make sure that I did not come near, and that that THING was warned away.

      I laughed and laughed.

      So you see — it is all about the turtle. The turtle is watching and running everything. The world is starting to make sense now. 🙂

  10. Re the video…it’s irrelevant in the first place. So what if the Earth is flat, round, oval, square (aka, Bizarro Earth), or any other shape? Does it impact the tenets, teachings, doctrines and practice of Scientology? Does any “conspiracy” or idea? Only if one considers it can stop them. Really, one has to rise above all this guff that surrounds us. As Ron said on one of the VIII tapes (paraphrased from memory), there can be an infinity of wrongesses around one rightness. Thus there can be an infinity of untruths around one truth (see Scientology Axioms). Evaluation of importances as one moves up the Bridge soon weeds out the nonsensical. Cheers. 🙂

            • Yup. Both ears up there somehow, although they won’t permanently be up for another month or two. But he’s a handful…I have to get up a few times during the night to take him outside to go pee, and if don’t watch his indicators during the day, he’ll do it on the floor. So he keeps me busy!

              • My wonderful companion Cass, a golden retriever X golden lab is now 10 1/2 years old and has for the first time really started to visibly slow down. I walk with her on the farm, and she trails behind me now, whereas she was always bouncing out ahead and exploring. She has arthritis in one of her front shoulders, but otherwise is in great health.

                My children have been nagging that they want a puppy and I have not relented as a) a puppy quickly becomes a dog and then children lose interest) and b) I feel so loyal to my companion Cass and would feel it is almost ending cycle on her, when she has not yet ended cycle.

                There is a real joy that dogs bring to a family life. The expressions, the goofiness, the accidents and the quirks. Jim has joked that Cass has me very well trained as she just needs to make a small yip and I am her doorman and will bounce out of the lounge or out of bed to let her in or out. Jim is right — she has trained me more that I have trained her — and I am OK on her running control on me to that degree – LOL.

                We will see what happens in 2016. When Cass decides she will move on then, or that she is not interested in walking any more, then it may be time to add one or two more friends to liven her day (as well as ours).

                • I’m sure Cass has many years left, maybe not as many as have passed, but more than 2016. 😉

                  The rest of what you say is sooth, too. I have a hunch it will curtail some riding as well, but luckily there are kennels within reach for those times I need some space. 🙂

                  Kasper says hi to Cass. 😀

    • Chris:
      I feel moved to agree with your response to this month’s post. That is due to the fact that I have observed you to be a spot on Source auditor/Scientologist. And that always gets a full 10 points in my world. (round or flat)

      But I won’t go there with you today. I am not convinced that you LOOKED, but rather knee-jerked responded and went for safe ground on this one.

      You do not need to know if the planet is flat or square to move up the Bridge, nor did I for that matter. Got it. Well done to us. So are we to now believe that only those of us who have The Tech are the only people worthy of honest, hertfelt discussion on the planet?

      Is a woman, or a group etc., crying out for answers to any question, flat earth or otherwise, so beneath us as to be dismissed as “wrongness” because you “know” the answer.

      Or rather, you or I THINK we know.

      As an auditor you want people to believe you can fix their mind with two tin cans. Of course, I know you can, but in a “culture” of unkindness and ready ridicule we can become the ones dismissed and accused of utter lunacy.

      That speaks to the idea behind this month’s post.

      Corporate Scn has all but destroyed any chance of ever actually helping 7 billion people to “know how to know.” Now if LRH’s aims of a New Civilization are ever to be realized it will be on the back of a few desperate few. (not my words)

      That being so perhaps we (you, me and our good friends) ought not be quite so arrogant as to simply spout LRH quatations instead of actually LOOKING, LISTENING and being terribly interested, a bit more here and there.

      Hell, who knows, perhaps we will discover that the world is a round globe after all and it’s our fat heads that are flat. Mine more than any other, perhaps.

      Cheers in 2016:)


      • Another zinger of a post, Ren.

        Yes indeedy, we still manage to learn more of how it “is”, when we are prepared to step out of our comfortable shoes, to walk a mile in those of another. I like to think of it as entering their “shoeniverse” (just a quick clipping of the words, you dig? 😉 )

        Interesting in this regard, when one checks out the Hubbard Chart of Evaluation, we find at the top of the column M, marked ‘Reality’, this: — “Search for different viewpoints in order to broaden own reality. Changes reality” (My emphasis here > CHANGES < reality)

        What a huge job it is, to remain constantly alert, and INTERESTED, when it's just so much easier to take the short cut of convenient 'judgement' hey?

        I think we ALL tend to slip up a bit, from time to time. Thing is, not to kid ourselves here. — We KNOW the right thing to do! Right? 😀

      • Sorry Poet Ren, but I’m on Chris’s side here.

        There are far too few auditors and way too much craziness in the world.

        Scientology and Dianetics provide real help in a way no other religion or science can.

        I prefer not to drift in a sea of perpetual doubt about who I am or what I am doing or why the universe exists. LRH’s explanations make far, far more sense than the mystical mumbo-jumbo and crack-pot theories spouting from the science buffoons.

        Scientific research? My arse; all they’re doing is trying to make our MEST coffin more comfortable.

        Suggesting that Chris hasn’t looked, and he’s wasting his time with soup cans? Well, I’d call that arrogance.

        Richard Kaminski

        • Poet13:

          Thanks for your comment.

          I believe you have misunderstood some of my communication. So here is what I actually said:

          “As an auditor you want people to believe you can fix their mind with two tin cans. Of course, I know you can, but in a “culture” of unkindness and ready ridicule we can become the ones dismissed and accused of utter lunacy.”

          Please notice my VALIDATION of Chris and his skills and the workability of auditing. Now I hope that clears that misunderstanding up for you.

          Also I applaud you for seeing the value of LRH Tech in relation to science and the MEST universe.

          Meanwhile, 7.5 billion people on this planet ARE NOT YOU. That’s the bad news. The good news is that 7.5 billion people ARE NOT YOU. Each Being has his or her point of view, interests, desires, hopes, dreams, questions and REALITY.

          On the day we, as adherants of LRH Tech, “assume” that LRH did all of the LOOKING Man requires – to the point where YOU will not be required to LOOK for yourself, that will be the day you misunderstood the core concept of ‘knowing HOW to know.”

          This is all just my “opinion,” of course. Please LOOK at it, see what you see or throw it in the toilet, as you deem responsible. I celebrate your freedom to do that.

          As for your comments about the “scientific baffoons,” are you daring to suggest that they could be wrong and there might be more we could know about Earth, flat, round square or otherwise?

          If so, I am impressed.



          • On the day we, as adherants of LRH Tech, “assume” that LRH did all of the LOOKING Man requires – to the point where YOU will not be required to LOOK for yourself, that will be the day you misunderstood the core concept of ‘knowing HOW to know.”

            This statement alone, proves you are not a Scientologist, not an adherent of LRH tech, and never were, and has no understanding of ARC, or the concept of ‘You can be right,’’ the absolute bedrock of LRH’s teaching, whatever your lip-service.

            The whole point of Scientology is to release people from the bondage of authority, science, religion, internal and external blackmail, their bodies and the MEST universe. In this respect, LRH is a hero beyond compare.

            He freed slaves, not made them, silly. Any basic book will show that, should you care to ever read one.

            Assuming I haven’t looked is you looking yourself in the mirror. Please don’t patronise me, and I won’t sneer at you in return.

            No-one here is trying to convert you; certainly not me – you’ve never heard that. You’ll never lose your mind by my hand, but you have a strong, even SHOUTING opinion of me. And neither have I any inclination to join your Johnny-come-lately science boys, having seen for myself what they are up to, not the least of which is genetic engineering, strange charms and entanglements, and condescension.

            One more point: science doesn’t do proof, only maths and logic do that, living as they do in abstraction, and unrelated to the real world. Science takes as it finds, its results are contingent, never analytic.

            Since you’ve predicated this post on the pretext that, “All men have inalienable rights…etc,” I urge you that “You can be right from your side and I can be right from mine.” I’ve had one to many mornings being brown-beaten by ‘authority,’ including the CoS, OSA and ‘Critical Thinkers,’ and I’ve called ‘Time’ on them all. They’re not senior to me, and neither is LRH – on the contrary, LRH was the first, ever person to grant me the validity of my own point of view, something science and the other busy-bodies point-blank refuse to do, including you, Poet Ren.

            “Meanwhile, 7.5 billion people on this planet ARE NOT YOU. That’s the bad news. The good news is that 7.5 billion people ARE NOT YOU.”

            No Scientologist could make such remarks: it’s pure bank.

            You pointed a gun and fired it at me: did you think I’d fold?

            Sorry, Poet Ren, I’m calling you out as a Scientology-hater.

            Richard Kaminski

            • POET13:

              I have been enjoying my wins with LRH Tech for the last 40 years (the man I considered my very best friend ever) – I have done so from the bottom of the Bridge to the top. I live it, breath it; I would not trade it for anything on this planet I am aware of.

              In doing so I have come accross far bigger, smarter, more self ritcheous assholes than you will ever be. Scientologist or no Scientologist. (that’s a compiment to you)

              If you don’t like, agree with or find my communications to your liking, I do understand. Just piss off.

              There are many wonderful articles for you here on MS2.

              As for you “calling me out.” Thank you for telling me that. Your game ends here. TERMINATEDLY.

            • Richard,
              Ren is a being I’ve known this life time alone for nearly 40 years. Though we have missed some time in between those years, when we met again it was as it always is, no time or space separates us.

              He’s a Scientologist in the real sense of the term.

              That he’s provoked and invited response is a testament to his skill as an artist. On that score, I’ve seen this being lay down a drum groove that could make rocks dance.

              His post also has incited thought. As he points out, one has to think with things on their own, especially Scientology or you won’t really get knowing how to know. That’s not “think-think” either, and neither he.

              Sorry Richard, I’m calling you out as mistaking this comm.

              Jim Logan

      • Ren, I initially wasn’t even going to comment on this post, but then re-looked and changed my mind. And I gave it some thought. So definitely not a “knee-jerk reaction”; and when do I ever go to safe ground these days? No, my comments were just as I saw things. I do look, and I do listen, and I do evaluate and assign importances (Logics, Axioms, the Qs); and I know it’s vitally important that as many of us get to the top of the Bridge as possible (not just via processing, but also via training and study) and as quickly as possible if there is to be any hope. So while I am open to and listen to the ideas and speculations of all the multitudinous viewpoints that abound around us, understanding that they are opinions and expressions of one’s take on life, I also know what is important and that resolution of all this will resolve once one recovers fully their true beingnesses. So it wasn’t arrogance, but perhaps a slap in the face to wake one up from all the interesting side roads as one journeys along the path to truth.

        “My advice to you is not to undertake the spiritual path. It is too difficult, too long, and is too demanding. I suggest you ask for your money back, and go home. This is not a picnic. It is really going to ask everything of you. So, it is best not to begin. However, if you do begin, it is best to finish.” ~~~ Chögyam Trungpa

        • Chris:

          Wise words in so many ways. And your honest concern for my and all of our community’s well being is duplicated, with thanks.

          I will only add that as an artist my post takes me into the heart of “culture” and wha it means to Be Do and Have on that subject. So my duties (unlike so many org posts) does take me into some pretty fascinating areas of interest. So your words are extra wise for me to keep in mind as I go..


    • Ahhhhhh! Thank God, a breath of fresh air and sanity!
      Thanks, Chris!

      ,,,,although, the world being carried on the back of 4 elephants standing on the back of a sea turtle swimming in the void is quite funny, Mabu.
      And Jim’s inanity also packs lots of sanity.
      As for you, Ren, what can I say?
      You got all of us kids to play!
      Happy New Year.

      • Thanks, Espiritu. And yes, I like the imagery of our world carried on the back of elephants on top of a sea turtle swimming through space. I wonder….perhaps it was that way once, somewhere, somewhen?

      • Espiritu:

        Thanks, I’m with you on the Jim thing.
        But perhaps you can help me with one child-like notion.

        In that one can see a building 22 miles across a body of water, when the curvature of a globe Earth would dictate that building should be 320 feet BELOW my line of sight or 32 stories out of sight, then what does that say to a DATA SERIES TRAINED OBSERVER?

        Turtles and Ahhhhhhh Thank God aside for a moment?



  11. Ren: “The video was made by a Persian woman and she has quite a story to tell. If her story is true it could have more impact on The Aims: a civilization without war, insanity, criminality, etc., than any other story you have heard, or learned about for a very, very, very long time.”

    Ren: “perhaps you can help me with one child-like notion.
    In that one can see a building 22 miles across a body of water, when the curvature of a globe Earth would dictate that building should be 320 feet BELOW my line of sight or 32 stories out of sight, then what does that say to a DATA SERIES TRAINED OBSERVER?
    Turtles and Ahhhhhhh Thank God aside for a moment?”

    Ren: “I chose one of the most extreme viewpoints I could find (the woman in the video) to create a kind of odd interactive, internet blog art piece of sorts. I framed it, put it up on the wall and let fly into the teeth of passersby.”

    Will you please clarify. Did you post Marmar Queen’s video to get an effect, or do you actually believe the flat earth hypothesis?

  12. MaBu:

    Allow me to pose the question :

    In that one can see a building 22 miles across a body of water, when the curvature of a globe Earth would dictate that building should be 320 feet BELOW my line of sight or 32 stories out of sight, then what does that say to a DATA SERIES TRAINED OBSERVER?


    • My word, finding fault with the Data series when you haven’t even studied it properly yourself. There’s no stopping your sniping, is there, Poet Ren, now that you’ve inveigled yourself onto this page.

      • Richard, easy, easy, this is not what you are suggesting, I dare say.

        Write to me, write to Ren and I’m sure we can relieve your questions with enough R, C and eventual A.


    • It might say that one does not have all the data on which to do a proper evaluation. For instance, what is the difference in elevation between the observer and the observed? (If the observer was 200 feet higher than the building, the horizon would be about 20 miles.) I would also want to know about refraction as well as to what extent gravity is bending the light being received by our eyes. I would also want to know why, if the Earth was flat (and our ability to perceive through physical eyes can be hundreds of miles – and is more at a straight distance), why one could not see something hundreds of miles away if the Earth was flat. Conflicting data. I’d also pull in all available data from orbiting satellites space stations as well as my own observations from now and past times. In other words, there are many other facts that would need to be included in order to do a proper eval. 🙂

      Oh, as an aside, there are many people who believe the Earth is hollow with another sun inside and a different race of beings living there with a couple key entrances and a bunch of lesser ones. 😉

      • Chris:

        Wonderful reply thanks. It sheds light on this discussion and others that our modern culture either need or simply want to deal with, from time to time.

        This is the real stuff I was hoping to hear when I decided to post this seemingly off the wall post. As in: what Tech do we have at our fingertips as Scientologists that could HELP another Scientologist (or non Scientologist) to answer, or at least bring some sanity to the subject/theory they are looking at. Be it something as extreame as flat Earth or a housing bubble, or, or or.

        Stated differently. my interest was how would we (in a Tech oriented culture) deal with, respond or help ourselves or someone else (in a not so theta culture) trying to understand what they are looking at. Auditing and training, of course, that is a given as we know.

        But creating futures and an improved culture does not always have the chance to begin with a person on the cans. Thus LRH Art Tech, PR Tech and so on.

        Instinctively, I thought Data Series, but I guess I Q & Aed a bit, went down the road of granting of Beingness, Integrity, the Creed, Factors and so on. But I think you nailed it and helped validate my first instinct. SUCH A DEBATE/CONCERN AS A FLAT OR ROUND PLANET COULD ONLY EXIST IF ONE OR BOTH SIDES “does not have all the data on which to do a proper evaluation.”

        Your response brings some light to that purpose. “…one does not have all the data on which to do a proper evaluation.” Per the Data Series that’s the gospel, right there. And that almost wraps up the entire issue in a sentence.

        Indeed it does not matter if the planet is square or round. It matters only that with the Tech we can honestly offer “anyone” – Flat Earther or the Who killed the Cookie Monster movement a way to know how they can know, in fact.

        All hail Rock N Roll, happening LIVE at MS2.

        Thanks Chris


        • This award goes to Chris Black, on behalf of The Poet Ren and his brothers and sisters in the “Sea Is Not Wet Society”.

          • I humbly accept this award on behalf of all those who have been maligned, mired in controversy and who have been brow-beaten for holding such radical views, nay, even called “conspiranuts”, but who are nevertheless truly DRY and confident in the belief that the sea TRULY IS NOT WET! Let the unbelievers gaze into the Infinity of the Great Calvin & Hobbes and KNOW the answers!

          • P.S. You do realize,MaBu, that your 1st place ribbon looks eerily like a grounded fish on dry land, flapping its finny flipper? 😉

              • Chris: I am glad you caught that covert intent on MaBu’s part to interject this Christian symbolism into our theta community. And where is Lana when this blog is being undermined like this.

                Now I don’t want to evaluate for MaBu but I say this is “other practices” pure and simple. HCO Bring Order!

                • Did you mean a visual resemblance? That’s why I flipped the ribbon to horizontal.

                  (Alliteration: a stylistic literary device identified by the repeated sound of the first consonant in a series of multiple words, or the repetition of the same sounds of the same kinds of sounds at the beginning of words or in stressed syllables of a phrase.)

      • Hi Chris. Jeez, i see you guys are in the seasonal grip of winter in Canada, while we South Africans need at least two showers a day, to offset the sweat and humidity of our scorching summer! 🙂

        Yes, as an all round artist, (cartoonist, sculptor, illustrator, draftsman), I really track with the geometrics and viewpoint positioning being summonsed here. And your summary quick eval, similarly, applies.

        I think that indeed , Ren appears to be teasing and having us on here! 😀 Any artist worth his biscuits, should be able to prove to you, as I SHOULD, that the earth is indeed CONICAL.!! Now that, imho, is what Ren is going to great pains to prevent you from finding out!

        So, my astute observer, the truth shall out! The earth is round, flat,(at one end) and has a sharp point at the other, to make a prick into an ego of anyone silly enough to doubt this hypothesis of ultimate gobbledigook!

        Happy New Year, pal. 😀

        • Actually, as the bank and GPM dramas are continually playing out here on Earth, I’ve always looked at Earth as some form of Mobius strip! 😉

  13. I suspect Ren is teasing us as part of his (post-modernist?) “kind of odd interactive, internet blog art piece of sorts”.

    I would posit similar questions and remarks as Chris above (Chris Black, January 4, 2016 at 12:55 pm).
    However, first I would like to actually see and verify, including all the calculations, that as a matter of fact “one can see a building 22 miles across a body of water, when the curvature of a globe Earth would dictate that building should be 320 feet BELOW my line of sight or 32 stories out of sight”. Is there any authentic, verifiable and reproducible example of this?

    As for Marmar Queen, she might have had an intuitive insight about the actual state of the beings in this planet (and universe): we are all deluded slaves in “The Matrix”. Unfortunatelly, she failed to figure out the real nature of “The Matrix” and the way out of it. Instead, she is getting herself even more into the trap. LRH spent a lot of time mapping the real nature and the way out of the “The Matrix”.

    • MaBu:

      Your question as to getting a true verification of the data regarding the 22 miles and your observation of the woman in the video are very spot on. (my opinion)

      Chris’s was last post was extra insightful and pretty well brings order to the entire matter, really.

      As a result I’d have to say that my conclusion might go something like this. The right piece of Tech applied to a given circumstance will bring order to that circumstances. Thus, greater freedom.

      It may not be poetry, but it sure brings a wonderful conclusion to this rather heated, somewhat emotional discussion.

      Art piece, well who am I to judge. But I’m taking one gold star on the “entertainment value” alone. Providing the star is flat and shiny and is awarded to me on the back of a green turtle, of course. 🙂

      With thanks for your comments on this month’s post, MaBu


      • Art intends to evoke response, thought, reflection, comment, outrage, emotion, rejection, and maybe even acceptance. Art is Cause and Effect wrapped up together. And art lives outside the box purposefully in order to achieve its goals. In that sense, this was digital art as much as any art is art. 🙂

  14. Wow, this OP has certainly engendered a lot of strong views, he&r and an upsetting quantity of bpc.

    I put it all down to a case of taking things too “seriously”.

    When we did TR-O (bullbaited) we were indeed taught (by LRH) how to flatten any reactions, by being’ flunked for breaking down’, and persisting with the button, until it was FLAT.

    Does the point of this wonderful drill, (in making great auditors), need to be revisited, here? I ask in all sincerity.

    All the incredible tech based on the axioms, amounts to the deft use of tools, to address “case”, in the direction of relief and freedom from, plus the gaining of ability.

    Right at the beginning, we were taught the value of CONFRONT, (being comfortable with a pc OR with nothing) or, as in TR-O bullbait (Not to be startled, or thrown off session, or to become upset with ANYTHING said. (buttons), in order to pass the drill.

    We were (and I speak for myself), taught that The TR’s were efficacious in the handling of life. We also found that it was also possible to handle almost anyone with communication alone. I saw the dramatic increase in ability, with those who really got the drills.

    Anyone finding themselves upset with another, would do well to recall that LRH maxim: “The world begins with TR-O” 🙂

    But more importantly, by getting re-acquainted with one’s spirit of play, one can have fun and laugh when one finds that life doesn’t have to be soooooo ‘serious’ after all, does it?? LOL 😀

      • Laughter still the best medicine eh, my good man? I see you take your daily dose with insouciant pleasure, too!

          • I’m not sure Calvin, but in case there’s any issue, I meant that sincerely as an acknowledgement.

            Perhaps there’s some things we should clear up, you and I. That wouldn’t be a group thing, but personal.

            I’ll write to you, OK?

            Aw’ight, I be chillin’.

            • Ha! back a ‘cha bud! LOL! I really HAVE evolved in to a critter without any more need to drag around useless bric-a-brac like charge and so forth! I’m particularly taken, through, with one of those high tech incoming shit detectors.. You haven’t hear, Jim?

              Why, you just clip ’em in your thetan pocket, and voila, you’re in business, bro!

              It even comes with a free ‘spirit of play’ module, just for, you know, back-up!

              You gotta get a demo of one of these things pal– ’cause I can see you didn’t notice I was using one.

              Oh, drat! Sorry, I forgot to mention.– They come in a DIY kit. just take a few minutes to assemble. just use your trusty old ‘cogntion wrench, follow your gut, whack it together any ol’ way you like, (’cause it will still work!) –trust me — cause I got it from the ‘ol man!

              Nothing else like ’em to be found anywhere!

              Hail Mary to the inimitable AZ-IZZZ machine!!! bro!! 😀

              • I too have a well-tuned bullshit detector, honed over many ages, and with a very sensitive needle – serves nicely.

                I’m also not afeared to use as much effort as correct estimation deems fit, taking into consideration the heretoforein mentioned BS perceptic.

                Not a qualm to it. No withhold. No motivator. Clean like a Kodiac Bear kill.

                Having moved through the scale past the “must use” of force and can or don’t, at will, this day I willn’t. Much happy in my day.

                Kiss, kiss, hug, hug, lucky bug in rug.

                • Big drum roll using these as sound effects….

                  … 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 — 😀 !!!!!

  15. I could not help but notice how easily words are thrown around when dealing with life in action before us. Or how words are used to label, define someone or even to reduce a target to lower stations. They are also used very cleverly by those who seek to silence and lessen our reach.

    One such term is “Conspiracy Theory,” so I offer this brief clarification on what that would be (per definition) rather that what it is so often assumed to be by some.

    CONSPIRACY: (according to Mirriam – Webster)

    1. a secret plan made by two or more people to do something that is harmful or illegal

    2. the act of secretly planning to do something that is harmful or illegal

    (Middle English conspiracie, from Latin conspirare)

    Discussion on the term: It refers to a plot, intrigue, machination, conspiracy, meaning a plan secretly devised to accomplish an evil or treacherous end.

    Plot implies careful foresight in planning a complex scheme . intrigue suggests secret underhanded maneuvering in an atmosphere of duplicity . machination implies a contriving of annoyances, injuries, or evils by indirect means . conspiracy implies a secret agreement among several people usually involving treason or great treachery . cabal typically applies to political intrigue involving persons of some eminence

    All of which begs the question. “If Joe says there are spaceships does that make it a conspiracy?” Obviously not.


    1an idea or set of ideas that is intended to explain facts or events
    : an idea that is suggested or presented as possibly true but that is not known or proven to be true
    : the general principles or ideas that relate to a particular subject

    • Roger that Ren.

      I fact when responding to Chris I added a link showing how the term “conspiracy theory” has been weaponized by the CIA to discredit anyone who doesn’t accept the official story or explanation of events.


      Unfortunately there has been a contagion of aberration on this point which has even infected some Scientology blogs or in some cases former Scientology blogs who even counter proponents of any “conspiracy theory” with the conspiracy theory that they must be working for OSA.

      Much like “our” Government suspects any “conspiracy theorists” of being in cahoots with some conspiracy to bring down the US Government.

      In short.

      It’s a matter of who’s ox is being gored or whether its the kettle accusing the pot of being black.

      Needless to say bringing up the topic I have noticed does incur controversy. However we must look at the fact that the Ol’man himself was not averse to holding controversial views.

      For instance in 1951 he was probably the first person to bring up the subject of the Intelligence Agencies using methods of mind control almost two decades before John Marks and other journalists broached the subject during and after the revelations of the Church Committee.

      Thousands of documents and testimony revealed what Ron had revealed more then 20 years earlier in his book Science of Survival.

      Yet in many ways he was considered a Cassandra or crack pot by the conformists who conform to establishment’s historical view that shit just happens and that one evil dim wit can rule the many.

      • Yeah RV. Lots to chew on there.Thing about these Spy vs. Spy birds, they’re so busy spying, they didn’t notice WE’d never stopped watching ’em all along. Oh, well, dese games keeps ’em where dey iss, I s’pose. Bung yourself in the little COBblers shoes, for a taste of how that must feel! … though, on second thoughts………

        • As they say RIB.

          Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

          Who will watch the watchers?

          We were doing a good job on that until the coup took over.

          Don’t get me wrong.

          I ain’t got nothing against spooks.

          Many of them are fascinating people.

          It’s just when some of them get into their Reindeer Games and Covert Ops like Mk Ultra, Mh Chaos, CoIntelPro, Echelon, Shamrock, etc. etc that I have a problem.

          I especially have a problem when their activities possibly include sabotaging Scientology by regime change.

          • Yessireee, Arvee! What I’ve found to work uniformly well, with these dickiebirds, is the direct (or subtle) suggestion of the ‘cuckoo’ factor, running the show in their cereBELLUM’S control center.

            — Hits a raw nerve every time! 😀

            (surest method of removing the flight feathers from our hitherto locked-on-target primeEVIL robodupes.

            Try it sometime. Amazing how delicate that ‘button’, can be! 😀

            • Roger that RIB,

              I think that just an awareness of what they’re up to and how they are doing helps without feeling compelled to do anything about it for now.

              In short TR 0.


      • On the money post, Remote…

        Hands down LRH was the most controversial author, personality, lecurer I had ever come across as a young man. I can still remember getting blown back i my chair by some ststement he just uttered, and thinking, “Wow! this is INTELECTUAL REVOLUTION. The gloves are off – and I love it.”

        That’s how “controversial” he could be, at least as I saw it.

        So you are dead on the money, Bud. in fact let’s up the gradient right here right now:

        Today. Right here right now. As we speak. DM is holding his entire empire together (IN PART) using the very methods you refer to in your post. Meaning that when we look we see that the “Conspiracy Theory” was NOT just a theory, after all. DM executed it with pure destructive intent.

        So I could not agree with you more. Time for TR O. And the recognition that just because someone is screaming blue murder, it does not always mean they are disgruntled apostates on the fringe of the Internet.

        The little blue man they just thought they saw, might be true blue after all.


        • Oh Ren, IMHO, you as-is pretty good, for a codger close to that magical number of three-score-and-ten!! 😀 (I, of all people, SHOULD know ’bout the ‘downhill factor’ too, y’know LOL! )

          But, hey, creative-force-of-repute, this is just me reflecting, on what is it about all those numbers and symbols and such?

          Nothing that a good heaping of Ol’ ‘zero an’ bullbait can’t knock clear outta the park, right?? 😀

        • Ren,

          In my opinion Miscavige is just a small piece in a bigger puzzle.

          Personally I don’t feel he is capable of carrying out his evil purposes or destructive intentions by himself and that there is some hidden influence involved and that he is part of a broader conspiracy and the the more we fixate on Miscavige. The less likely it will be to see the whole picture.

          That is my opinion. So you can take it or leave it.

          Also many of “disgruntled apostates”. Especially the ones who scream the most were behind the initial power push that “overthrew” the GO an act of Mutiny and therefore a suppressive act which not only radically restructured the Organization but the Grade Chart as well.

          In an ostensible effort to “to save the organization from the higher officers of Scientology.”

          • Remote…

            Frankly I am with you right down the line on that view of the scene. Something tells me we could follow that one down stright into the Halls of darkness.

            But I have decided on a different approach. Let me know if it resonates with you or not: But I have taken the view that sooner or later every movement toward spirital advancement is TESTED. And it’s tested big.

            It faces destruction or it survives. Governments, Kings, takeovers the blood baths, and the teetering on oblivion.

            Ours came pretty early (from whatever enemy source) and it’s in full swing as we speak. That’s the bad news.

            The good news is that there are those who did not, and will never give up the ship – to the death. Never! And in that resolve the Tech is safe and it will survive and find its way into new and bright generations of good and decent souls.

            And that’s the stuff legends are made of, the great stories are written about and the ages come and go remembering the few who faced the dragon with just a bit more piss, vinigar and fire than the dragon could handle.

            And as it happens Remote, you are one of those. As are all of the good souls on this Blog. It’s also the ONLY reason I am here and among friends.

            Just an opinion from a veteran of a thousand wars.


            • Thanks for the kind words PoetLaureate 🙂

              Very well said.

              You’re absolutely right.

              I came to the realization that just having an awareness of what is really going on tends to blow a lot of the charge.

              Also an acknowledgement help as well 🙂

              So thanks again.

              We’re lucky to the extent that we have good people like you and others who see what’s going on.

              And pretty much has been going on.

              Also you are so right that eventually we’ll win 🙂

  16. And now for the poetry part of “Poetry N Candlelight” for this months post on MS2.


    The human soul authors space and time
    A point of view – and points to view

    Painter of skies, sculptor
    Of universes, The MAGICIAN speaks
    With life energy, heart string playing:
    And the music is the music of eternity
    His hand, Her breast, the red, red rose

    Call yourself a god or spirit manifest
    If you will; if you dare

    Come face to face with lovers shedding
    Light on pillows – Womankind and moons
    And a trillion stars finding beds to rest

    The affairs of Man are desperate now

    The quest to validate Self has begun
    What are you waiting for?

    A journey of 75 million years
    Unfolds to life anew
    Wiping away Humanity’s tears

    10 – 10 – 15

    • Wow, now that is inspirin’ writin’, Dear Ren. mebbe just a little thank you , in the same vein as your forte, (but not mine, LOL!

      Oh how we adore.
      Ah how we dream.
      We put forth our hands
      To feel for a presence.
      We withdraw, when our reach’
      Is met with a sliver, painful as hell.
      The price of wanting to ‘discover’
      So we retreat into our shell,
      That we may digest the event.
      We decide, ’tis better to look,
      Than to cast forth in a brook.
      When no sense is satisfied
      By gambling as a blind chinook.
      But how the heck to make ends meet
      For a fella who’s stuck on the street?
      “Here’s a hand”, we hear you say,
      “Try stepping over here”,
      “For a better view, dear SunRay”.
      – “Why do you call me that?” fella asks
      Only to be told, by you,
      “Cause it’s in your warmth, I basks..”
      So, over, fella steps, to see,
      What on earth you’re babbling can be?
      “Look,” you point to him, “at the ripples, there”
      “See the life bubbling”, beckoning his flair.
      “Oh! Perhaps I can catch one for supper?”
      “Perhaps”, you proffer.– “But better still”
      ” Might this not be a way to keep you tummy full?”
      Fella pauses a while, before going on to say.
      “You know, I think you have just brightened my day!”
      –“I think I have just found a reason”
      “To stay on the street for broader pleasins’ ”
      ” There’s so much fishin’ swimming here’
      “I can make a livin’, and a feedn’, throughout the seasons!

      (A tribute to some flow three comm release, inspired by Poet Ren.)

      — racing. 🙂

  17. Racing…

    So nice to see your creating freely. If you can teach a hungry man to fish – wonderful imagery you have going there. Do keep writing and sharing here on MS2.

    And thanks for the acknowledgement. We the instruments of future making – the dancing clowns and foolhearty, we the faceless singers, music makers and mimes need every compliment we can steal, from friend and starngers alike. As you well know, I am sure.


    • Thanks, for this, R. 😀 …And ain’t that the truth, dear fellow.( and muso extraordinaire.!) After all, It’s what we live for, aint it?? — Creation and Excitement! What else can get the adrenaline pumping up enthusiasm, in quite the same way, hey?? 😀

  18. Ren: “I think you nailed it and helped validate my first instinct. SUCH A DEBATE/CONCERN AS A FLAT OR ROUND PLANET COULD ONLY EXIST IF ONE OR BOTH SIDES does not have all the data on which to do a proper evaluation.”

    Just an observation about the specific case of the flat vs round earth.
    Pictures of the round planet Earth taken by satellites and spaceships sent out by different countries are widely available.
    So, dismissing all these pictures as bogus, product of a world-wide conspiracy held by millions of people, is not lack of information, it is “stuck 7”.
    The lack of enough data to do a proper evaluation is only the main issue for very uneducated people or/and for people who live in a bubble (maybe like the Amish).

    • MaBu:

      I see what you mean. That’s why I strongly suggest you DO NOT waste your time watching “Flat Earth For Dummies” ) or anything else on the subject) on YouTube. I wouldn’t recommend such a thing, even as sheer entertainment, or to see for yourself how stupid, wrong and misguided these nutballs are for even daring to ask questions.

      You and I are way to well informed for such an obvious lack of intelligence.

      Besides, I’d never want to stick you in any kind of “stuck 7” – be it mine, yours or the man who saw earth from the moon, allegedly.

      Stay away from it, like the plague.


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